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 Post subject: Fast versus slow chops
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2015, 22:40 
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I have a basic question. Do fast or slow chops give offensive players more difficulty?

I do not know how to loop against chops, so I cannot answer this question from my own experience?

I first addressed this question one year ago, when I had Tenergy 64 on one of my Joo blades and Tenergy 80 on my other Joo blade. I would chop on my forehand and ask various members of my club to compare their experience attacking against the two Tenergy rubbers. More recently, I tried the analogous experiment, with Tenergy 80FX on one Joo blade and Tenergy 05FX on the other Joo blade.

This comparison was performed with six offensive players at my club, all rated between 2000 and 2300, i.e., they were all very competent in looping against chops.

Three persons said that it was easier to loop against the slow chops, since they had more time to get into position and more time to read the backspin. Two persons said that it didn't matter, except for the fact that my chops with the faster Tenergy were usually deeper which made looping more difficult. One person said that the fast chops were easier to loop since his position relative to the table was more comfortable. Also, one person later changed his mind, saying that it is was easier to loop fast chops since his could use the greater momentum of the faster chop to generate more speed in his loop.

Anyway, from the above experiments I get the impression that the answer to my question is not straightforward, with different offensive players having different personal preferences. If anyone would like to provide their own answer to my question it would be most appreciated.

Steven

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 04:24 
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its personal
some players prefer slower other faster
slower has more horizontal bounce, usually more backspin, bounce is higher, trajectory is higher, its easier to smash
faster has more vertical more flat bounce, usually less backspin, bounce is lower, trajectory is lower, its harder to smash
but best is to use both of them as variation (eg. play some slower to deep fh, and then put a fast deep into bh)

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 05:17 
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I think of all the priorities when you chop, speed is lower in rank. Example of a list for highish level play:

1. Deep
2. Spinny
3. Low
4. Fast

What I mean is judging the return, when there's some difficulty you should choose things higher in the list and sacrifice lower ones. Too short and you simply give away too many options. Too high and no spin and they will drive right through. If you can fulfill all those, I think given a choice, faster is usually better, but a slow one once in a while for variation is good, too.

When LP block/pushing short balls there's some more value to a short off-speed shot which surprise people, but the higher level you go the less changes in speed surprises people, they just use the time to set up and blow it away.


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 21:32 
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And for us lowish level players.. no one ever loops against chop (or push), a chop just invites a push.. :lol: A high one occasionally gets hit. More often than not, into the net.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 02:50 
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garbol, irenic, iskandar taib

Thanks for all of your comments. Forty years ago, with my old setup, I don't recall thinking much about the speed of my chops. I was mostly concerned with placement (especially depth), height, and spin variation (on my forehand). Now, that I use a much faster Joo blade, the question of the importance of speed of chops is new and interesting for me. This point about the speed of chops was also discussed in our interview of Norio Takashima. He felt that fast chops should be an important part of the repertoire of a modern defensive player.

This topic also makes me wonder how important is the speed of Joo's chops. Compared to a classic defender, it seems that the pros find Shiono's forehand chops easier to deal with than those of Joo. I wonder if the much faster (and deeper) chops of Joo are a key part of this difference.

Steven

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 08:59 
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I believe Joo's overall better player in all aspects, including heavier deeper chops, and very consistent defense lately.

It's hard for backspin to be nearly as fast as topspin or else it hits the net very easily, so I don't think its possible to time pressure like loop-drives.


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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 11:37 
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There's no way for a chop to be as fast as a topspin drive, unless it's a chop-kill (i.e. it is hit high above the net). Backspin causes the ball's trajectory to flatten while topspin causes the ball to drop. A chop the same speed as a topspin drive which hits the end of the table would float off the end.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 02:01 
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Fast chops will always be much slower than fast attaching shots.

Nevertheless, to me, the question is whether fast, deep chops make it more difficult for the attacking player. In other words, do fast, deep chops result in more errors and/or weaker attacking shots. One person that I was practicing with, who used to be rated 2300, said that for him faster chops are more difficult to deal with because it gives him less time to read the spin and plan for the next shot.

My question could be re-phrased as follow. Consider two different blades, one a Joo blade and the other a Donic Defplay Senso, both with same Tenergy on the forehand. If one's control when chopping is identical for the two setups, which setup would be better for classic defense? I could be wrong, but my impression is that the Joo blade would be better for the above reasons.

Steven

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 02:57 
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True, but the chances of it landing vs. high pace shots is harder to control. Joo does it because he's Joo... ;)

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 03:03 
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Always found that slower chops win me more points. The attacker needs to use more forward momentum to control his power as opposed to using the balls incoming power. Fast chops are good to change the pace and then counter.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 05:02 
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leatherback wrote:
Always found that slower chops win me more points. The attacker needs to use more forward momentum to control his power as opposed to using the balls incoming power. Fast chops are good to change the pace and then counter.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

I have found the same. I get more points outright on higher, slower, spinnier chops. The fast and low chops rarely win the point with a miss by the opponent, but they do often result in an attackable return to finish with my forehand. The slow, spinny chops are often misjudged and dumped in the net or hit long.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 21:08 
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Exception .. Fast .. or medium .. chop blocks .. are very effective .. winning points ..

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 22:21 
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Interesting question, Steven and lots of interesting answers too...

Now, you're only talking about FH chops, right? For me, the speed of those chops mostly depend on the speed of the topspin loop from the opponent... A fast spinny loop that I chop back with forehand will always return rather deep en fast. Probably I'm not accomplished enough to make variations in this situation?

Compared to Defplay, JSH will indeed be a little easier to make faster and lower FH-chops, now this doesn't answer the question what's most effective. That depends on so many things...

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 00:32 
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unrealistic hard chop to loop is:
maximum as u can get deep
maximum as u can get fast
maximum as u can get spin
maximum as u can get low
so best will be as close as u can get as listed above :)

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 10:04 
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Pipsy wrote:
Interesting question, Steven and lots of interesting answers too...

Now, you're only talking about FH chops, right? For me, the speed of those chops mostly depend on the speed of the topspin loop from the opponent... A fast spinny loop that I chop back with forehand will always return rather deep en fast. Probably I'm not accomplished enough to make variations in this situation?

Compared to Defplay, JSH will indeed be a little easier to make faster and lower FH-chops, now this doesn't answer the question what's most effective. That depends on so many things...


Thanks to everyone for their very interesting comments. It does seem clear that fast chops can be beneficial, or even detrimental, depending upon the particular circumstances.

With regard to Pipsy's post, I certainly agree that the speed to the topspin loop will have a large impact of the speed and depth of the subsequent chop. With my setup, I am able to slow down the speed of the chop against a fast topspin loop some amount by chopping more underneath the ball. (This will usually increase the amount of backspin too.) However, I am only able to vary the speed of the chops in this way if I am sufficiently far from the table. Closer to the table, against a fast loop, my chopping stroke would have to be shorter, because of lack of time, and the chops would always be fast and deep. I should also mention that I can perform this slower chop only with a soft rubber such as Tenergy 80FX. I wouldn't know how to slow down the chop with a much harder rubber.

Steven

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Butterfly Tenergy 80-FX 1.9mm
TSP Curl P1R 1.4-1.7mm
--------------
Returned to table tennis September 2011
Canada National Team Member, 1973-1975
--------------
1972-1987
Brickell Balsa/Birch 3-ply Blade
Yasaka Mark V 1.5mm
Joola Toni Hold AntiTopspin 2.5mm


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