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 Post subject: Second loop going long
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2014, 22:58 
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Similar title to my previous topic but its a different issue. I'm now landing opening loops with a lot more consistency. They are fairly slow and spinny and all but the top few players do have a bit of trouble controlling them, though to put it in context our top players are intermediate at best.

The issue is that when someone returns these shots and they sit up a little, my follow up loop is going long. I'm getting caught I think doing the same stroke and having trouble adjusting to a flatter stroke for the second shot. Is this pretty much just the adjustment I need to make, a flatter, more forward stroke? If I start landing these more often, how will the next one come back?

The fact I'm even posting this is a step forward for me.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 00:10 
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Common problem early on in a TT career, because your first loop is probably against backspin. Second against no spin from a soft block.

So yes you should be killing the second ball. No one over there is really going to be looping your first loop, a couple might be chopping it back which against inverted should give you a similar ball to the first one. But the blocks, hit them. There's no need for looping rallies just yet, loop, hit, chop, loop, hit, chop, loop, hit is a nice easy combination to keep doing.

Being able to adjust your loop to hit anything will come in time but you know these things take many years to grind into the body when you are doing it part time.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 06:27 
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> Is this pretty much just the adjustment I need to make, a flatter, more forward stroke? If I start landing these more often, how will the next one come back?

Yes if they pop your next one is a fwd loopdrive. Those don't come back as often if you do it right.


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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 10:19 
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Thanks for that, I think that might be my next ball feed excercise, than the feeder just feed balls, get them to block after my first shot.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 10:46 
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foam wrote:
Common problem early on in a TT career, because your first loop is probably against backspin. Second against no spin from a soft block.

So yes you should be killing the second ball. No one over there is really going to be looping your first loop, a couple might be chopping it back which against inverted should give you a similar ball to the first one. But the blocks, hit them. There's no need for looping rallies just yet, loop, hit, chop, loop, hit, chop, loop, hit is a nice easy combination to keep doing.

Being able to adjust your loop to hit anything will come in time but you know these things take many years to grind into the body when you are doing it part time.


Personally I find top-top against less than higher level to be pretty easy compared to 3rd/5th ball against backspin. If something comes back too fast just counter instead of going through full stroke. I'm not sure what kind of opponents you play but very few players I've seen will chop with inverted against a topspin attack except at levels where the spin/speed is manageable. Once the point opens up in the modern game it very rarely returns from topspin rally, so those improving to reach that level might as well expect top-top. You only have so many hours to practice so getting ready for the next couple levels up is best use of it.


Last edited by agenthex on 30 Oct 2014, 10:51, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 10:50 
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Cobalt wrote:
Thanks for that, I think that might be my next ball feed excercise, than the feeder just feed balls, get them to block after my first shot.


Yep do that, get him to block your loops, then see what you can do with the second. For most of my life I'd just try and chop the blocks back with as much spin as I could to try force him to chop again as I was always most comfortable looping backspin. Or force him to loop so I could block. Things changed a few years ago after I started to figure out how to ruin peoples heads while playing but it took me 20 years to start to understand the whole variation thing. In the end that's faaaaar more important than any stroke.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 10:54 
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> Things changed a few years ago after I started to figure out how to ruin peoples heads while playing but it took me 20 years to start to understand the whole variation thing. In the end that's faaaaar more important than any stroke.

The problem is this takes time to figure out, same as hours of drilling for consistency, etc.

When the average club player is looking to improve most effectively in the few hundred hours max a year by far the most reliable way is learn to topspin/counter everything, and push heavy against anything which can't be. That and serves of course. Once they reach a certain physical level/potential then it's time to start thinking tactics to beat the next level or two up where they're likely to stall for a while.


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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 11:10 
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agenthex wrote:
foam wrote:
Common problem early on in a TT career, because your first loop is probably against backspin. Second against no spin from a soft block.

So yes you should be killing the second ball. No one over there is really going to be looping your first loop, a couple might be chopping it back which against inverted should give you a similar ball to the first one. But the blocks, hit them. There's no need for looping rallies just yet, loop, hit, chop, loop, hit, chop, loop, hit is a nice easy combination to keep doing.

Being able to adjust your loop to hit anything will come in time but you know these things take many years to grind into the body when you are doing it part time.


Personally I find top-top against less than higher level to be pretty easy compared to 3rd/5th ball against backspin. If something comes back too fast just counter instead of going through full stroke. I'm not sure what kind of opponents you play but very few players I've seen will chop with inverted against a topspin attack except at levels where the spin/speed is manageable. Once the point opens up in the modern game it very rarely returns from topspin rally, so those improving to reach that level might as well expect top-top. You only have so many hours to practice so getting ready for the next couple levels up is best use of it.


Old school inverted choppers will always chop loops, it would be fairly safe to assume there's a few of them at his club as I have played there a few times and live nearby (same kind of population/players). I do not know if they still have these tables either but last time I played at his club there was quite a few tables with grippy paint so it's a club where's its almost advantageous to play backspin, that's how I prefer to play when I'm there. But depends on what table you get.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 11:15 
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agenthex wrote:
> Things changed a few years ago after I started to figure out how to ruin peoples heads while playing but it took me 20 years to start to understand the whole variation thing. In the end that's faaaaar more important than any stroke.

The problem is this takes time to figure out, same as hours of drilling for consistency, etc.

When the average club player is looking to improve most effectively in the few hundred hours max a year by far the most reliable way is learn to topspin/counter everything, and push heavy against anything which can't be. That and serves of course. Once they reach a certain physical level/potential then it's time to start thinking tactics to beat the next level or two up where they're likely to stall for a while.



Yes a good push and loop get you to the top of any small club without needing to think. Variation has 1000 levels of skill in itself. You can see even the best players in my state have noooo idea what is going on against some old pros. Like when Primorac came to Carbonmans club, 2400 level guys and Primorac made them look like beginners and he was only pushing :). Crazy stuff.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 11:17 
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Can you give a brief description of level/position? Is it more like a full chop or chop-block? Chopping fast loops down at the table as an alternative to counter/block seems pretty hard for the benefit of resetting the point.


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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 11:54 
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Cobolt, IF your first opening loop is vs an underspin ball, your slow spinny loop is produced by a stroke that has a lot of upwards swing to it. IF the opponent is blocking that loop, it will have light topspin normally. The follow-up shot IF you use the same upwards swing will guarantee a ball hit out. IF you get a slow, light topspin ball back, even belly high, you must swing more forward to land this attack.

DO NOT dip your hitting shoulder down (like you would to generate heavy spin vs an underspin ball)

DO NOT hit the ball way in front of you.

DO keep the bat NO LOWER than chest height during your recovery and backswing. This will force you to rotate your shoulders and have a swing plane that helps you swing more forward, which is what you need to do to drive or loodrive the blocked ball.

As already mentioned, LOTS of players discovering how to loop vs underspin go through such a phase. it is simple to correct, but many do not fix it in a day.

Another thing many newer players do when they see a possible ball to kill is do the wrong things to generate power to finish. many will bend back from the hips/lower back and try to use all their upper body power to make power. All this does is make you swing up, and often in front of you, which is a good way to hit the ball off balance, off time and way long/out.

Just remember to keep the bat up and your knees bent, hip down some and you will be ready to step into the blocked ball and hit it with a forward swing while it is still high enough to allow you some room for error.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 16:05 
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foam wrote:
You can see even the best players in my state have noooo idea what is going on against some old pros. Variation has 1000 levels of skill in itself. Like when Primorac came to Carbonmans club, 2400 level guys and Primorac made them look like beginners and he was only pushing :). Crazy stuff.

It was Korbel who visited. He played Craig C in first gear and all he did was push, fish and do an occasional attacking stroke. Craig knew what was going on (it had nothing to do with variation) but was powerless to do anything about it - and Craig has power! I have also seen Korbel make a 2600+ player look like a beginner.


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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 18:00 
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Korbel indeed! half asleep as usual. I saw a video of him hitting at your club, seemed to have everyone totally bamboozaled :rofl: :up:

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 18:17 
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agenthex wrote:
Can you give a brief description of level/position? Is it more like a full chop or chop-block? Chopping fast loops down at the table as an alternative to counter/block seems pretty hard for the benefit of resetting the point.


With inverted choppers you cant hit very fast loops and still clear the net really. Always too much spin and too low.
Got no clue if this is inverted or not but this is the kind of stroke a proper chopper players no matter the rubber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZobHoU7blk It always looks verrrry smooth, note the extreme fine cut on the ball, they have no problem playing those over the top of the table, very different to the blade angle an offensive player pushes with.

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2014, 18:35 
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foam wrote:
Korbel indeed! half asleep as usual. I saw a video of him hitting at your club, seemed to have everyone totally bamboozaled :rofl: :up:

Without trying to labour the point, there was no real bamboozling or great variation associated with Korbel playing 2400+ players. He is just RIDICULOUSLY good. I was lucky enough to have a hit with him for 5 minutes or so and got him to go through his array of serves. I was actually surprised that they were not really that heavy or deceptive. Nevertheless, even though i could return his serves reasonably well, im sure he could have made a mess of my returns if he wanted.


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