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PostPosted: 25 May 2015, 14:24 
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I personally preferred the arm mechanics in your last video to this one - the backswing and the finishing position in that video were of much higher quality -f you had shorted that one and improved it, it would have still been better than this one. Finishing across the body carries a measure of risk that is hard to appreciate unless you compare the consistency of that shot to the consistency of yours in this video - yours leaves the path of flight of the ball early. Of course, some pros do loop like this but it is not something I would recommend. Even Timo Boll no longer loops like this if you watch his recent matches.

I take that back - the biggest issue is your backswing. It seems that you misunderstood some advice that was given to me on the other thread.

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Last edited by NextLevel on 25 May 2015, 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 May 2015, 23:37 
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Smacktooth wrote:

Finish position is still not consistent. I guess a part of that is because I've been receiving conflicting advice about where it should be. Some say above bat above right eye, others say just below left eye...maybe there's not one right answer. My coach said bat doesn't need to come above your eyes.



I want to get into this a little and criticize/analyze other parts of your stroke and help you see why your previous video was better than this (you may have focused too much on the size and tennis stroke criticisms which were largely misguided IMO). Your body rotation is decent (though you are misusing it baly). As long as you turn your shoulders using your core, that is enough, but excess might build good habits when learning.

So let me explain what your coach and some people are often not seeing.

Dunc was finishing on the same side of his body. Whatever you want to do with your stroke, you should do this too.

Finishing above the eyes is really about finishing in a way that keeps most of the stroke path on the same side of your body. It encourages stroking towards your target. It keeps the racket in line with the ball for a long time thereby maximizing your chances of putting the ball on the table if you hit the ball at a point which is not exactly where you intend to hit it with your stroke. It also limits the chances that you will engage the upper arm/shoulder in the wrong way (as you would likely do if asked to get real power out of your current shot). There are times when you may have to finish lower/across your body on easy balls to get drive timing, but as a default stroke, the result is usually bad habits and an inability to play rally topspins with confidence.

Yes, there are some very good players who loop and finish below the eyes. But they understand their forehand topspin much more than most people do, have low stances and generate an amazing amount of wrist speed. that would put most mortals to shame. And most of them finish more traditionally in their actual matches when not driving the ball.

I would also consider your current starting point too low for a topspin ball. Finishing on the same side of your body also encourages you by default to learn to play over the ball as the amount of speed generated by having a longer arm makes playing over the ball more natural and almost a fundamental requirement.

The backswing is part of the stroke - it's part of where the magic happens that creates a whip like effect in your arm/elbow/wrist that snaps out when you swing at the ball. So you should start in neutral position and not all the way back behind your body.

So here are my recommendations:

1. Go back to your stroke in the video prior to this. It is of higher quality than this one.
2. Try to time the backswing better - you should not be waiting with your paddle at the back. It should be in the neutral position and the backswing should be timed to generate whip as part of the stroke. Don't focus on the neutral position, but DO NOT STOP completely on the backswing. Do you stop completely in the middle of cracking a whip?

I didn't notice this before, but your stopping on the backswing is the biggest thing that is hurting your stroke right now. Think whip when doing a stroke. You don't crack a whip without a backswing before the crack. You shouldn't do a looping stroke without a backswing (without stopping before changing direction) to whip the ball forward. This whipping motion is fundamental to easy power in high level table tennis and pretty much any sport that relies on proper use of the arm to generate high speeds.

3. Forget the stuff about starting lower - start higher if your lift too many balls off the table and lower if too many balls go into the net but always try to play OVER the ball.

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2015, 22:24 
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I'm going to disagree with you a little bit NextLevel, just to add confusion to Smacktooth's progress... :lol:

I believe his weight transference, stance and contact on the ball are all much better than previous videos.

If you look at Smacktooth's backswing/starting position, you'll see it's almost identical to the top Chinese players:



If you compare his video to that one, you'll see that the major issue is the end of his stroke. I believe that because his follow-through is far too long and low, it's not giving him the "coil" or "snap" that an eyebrow finishing position does.

Two caveats with the backswing/starting position - absolutely make sure that your arm never goes straight - it must stay bent. If your arm stays straight, it takes you a long time to swing at the ball which means you'll never feel like you're in the right position to play your loop. I know this from first hand experience as I was once a straight arm looper in that sense. Secondly, the further your arm has to go back, the more advanced the stroke. Most coaches will tell you to have much less back swing because especially in attack vs. attack matches you need to be able to react quickly. Your stroke is quite an advanced stroke, hard to learn and hard to execute, but as you can see - Ma Long does the same thing.

Smacktooth... could you produce us another video like that one, with only two changes - don't take the bat quite as far back, and finish your stroke at your right eyebrow? It'll feel weird, but you'll soon get used to it. I bet then, in comparison even to Ma Long's video, your stroke will look quality. Then it's just a case of hitting 500,000 balls until it becomes absolute muscle memory regardless of where you're playing your loop from... :)

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2015, 23:18 
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Ok guys,

I've tried to synthesize all the feedback into something tangible and here's where I got to yesterday.

https://vimeo.com/130095090

I am ending the stroke at the right eye brow more, but in not really sure if I'm starting the swing any further forward. I'm finding it difficult to retain any snap or whip type feeling in the stroke when trying to shorten it on both ends. It feels stiff. Maybe my body will learn how to relax within that more narrow window with time and repetition.

3 things that stand out to me in contrast to the Ma Long video:
1) on every shot, he turns his head/eyes slightly to look at the ball at impact, thusly taking the ball later, more beside him. I'm still struggling to do this, and usually I don't. This something I really want to get, because I see it affecting all my forehand strokes, especially in matches when I start reacting and rushing.

2) he does not retract from the stroke along the same path, rather, he brings it more Straight down and behind him. Is this more efficient, faster, or just style?

3) he's total trained-from-tiny-tike badass TT machine.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2015, 00:52 
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your backswing is definitely too excessive there my friend. in the video before it was more down than back. if you look at Ma Long, he starts with a bent arm next to his right knee - and as I said earlier, that's quite an advanced stroke

for comparison, look at the following video:


in the first 10 seconds, you can see me looping against block. my bat barely goes below the table, but it's still reasonably quick. I'm not trying hard there either - there's one "real" loop in there, you can see how fast that ball travels, but again very little backswing. this is how most european loopers play their forehand stroke (albeit with a lot more wrist)

then, after 10 seconds when I'm chopping, watch Fabian's backswing. he's playing against heavy backspin so he starts incredibly low and uses his entire arm and body like a pendulum to get as much spin on the ball as possible. if you try to play that stroke against block, you'll primarily hit off but you'll also find you're not able to react quickly enough to get the 2nd or 3rd block on the table

fast forward to 2m38s and you'll see me using my forehand loop as part of a drill. a little more depth on the start of the swing this time but the key thing to note is how fast the ball travels - and how fast my arm moves to make it travel that quickly!

I think if you reduce the backswing but speed up the movement of how quickly you bring your arm through, you'll find you've got a cracking forehand loop

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2015, 01:59 
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Straight/straighter armed looping vs. bent arm looping...

Smacktooth, that's an excellent loop to me for where you are at in the process. If the last 7 seconds or so show the loop in real time, then the frequency of the balls is too high for learning and you aren't able to build in the elements at a relaxed pace. You should slow down the stroke and the ball feed in real time.

The wrist is relaxed but it could probably be more so. The pause on the backswing is sometimes longer than I would like but maybe the slow motion is fooling me. You should do the stroke slower so that you have more time to get it right and so that you are forced to sync the backswing with the stroke.

You could return to the ready position in between strokes and start your backswing from there when you have time. However, you don't do so as consciously because you are rushed for time.

On Ma Long: taking the backswing closer to the body is an advanced way of keeping the center of gravity closer so that you can turn quicklier (one of the advantages of bent elbows). IT also keeps the shoulder out of play on the backswing and is more torso driven. But it's not a deal breaker here - you can practice that if you want but it does complicate timing for some people. At a slower speed, it is easier to incorporate. But again, don't waste time on nonsense.

I would actually like to see it at regular speed and maybe from the back and front to get a better idea of a few things as those are the views loops are typically evaluated from (there might be things not apparent from the side that I am missing like balance). Regular speed gives me a better idea of how fast your racket is moving and that is a critical part of looping.

You can LATER play around with how straight you want the arm to be (it doesn't have to be as straight as your video but it can be) and how large you want the backswing to be depending on the SPEED, SPIN and LOCATION of the incoming ball, but the ability to loop with a straighter arm and elbow snap is crucial. If you ran your robot at a higher speed or more realistically, made it feed to more different spots, you would be forced to shorten the backswing automatically to time the ball better, so looping with a shorter stroke is easier to force yourself to do in the right situation. It just doesn't produce the power you need when you have time to really juice the ball.

I play closer to the table and I am taller so my arm is not as straight as yours. But it is still relatively straight - it's shorter vs. block, but definitely nothing like Dunc's because I prioritize power over consistency.

Bent arm looping helps when you have less time to react, but when you get a slow ball, you need the ability to straighten out the arm and wipe it out. You will see that most of the people who loop with bent arms have issues looping heavy backspin powerfully for this very reason. It's okay for counterlooping but unless you are Timo Boll and have super fast wrists, you aren't going to be doing much with bent arms (see all Japanese and many Euro loopers). It's something that people who loop with bent arms all the time just have trouble doing.

So here are my prescriptions.

1) Slow down the ball feed. You are going way too fast if the end of the video is real speed. A ball every two seconds is fine. IT gives you time to do the stroke and return to the ready position (which is at the golden point relative to the body - Brett has a video on this).
2) Keep the arm relatively straight so you can snap the elbow. Keep the arm as relaxed as possible even when keeping it slightly bent.
3) Relax the wrist as much as you can while maintaining control. If you see your wrist flapping slightly at the end of your backswing in the videos (don't force it in real time), then you will know you have done it very relaxed and you will get the whip you are looking for no matter how long or short the backswing is.
4) The size of the backswing is up to you - it is going to have to get shorter, but you need to the ability to make it larger or at least with a straighter arm for some balls.
5) Share the video of your loops in real time from the front of the table camera view and your stance behind you.

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2015, 02:16 
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I post this mostly to give you an idea of how fast you should be going when learning. Note that I was already over USATT 2000 when going at this pace to rebuild my forehand. This was Brett's favorite video during the process (and here I was finding all my macho speed drill videos impressive). My partner is giving me a soft ball and I am taking it late which gives me more time. The best moments are between 4:30 and 10:00. After 10:00, as I come back to the table, I revert to my inferior stroke. Again, being rushed is not ideal. Give yourself as much time as possible to get it right and you can always shorten the backswing when rushed.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2015, 08:15 
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I used to be a straight arm looper:


What I found was that I could rarely bring my "weapon" to bear, and my third ball attack was never as good in matches as it was in practice primarily because I had to give myself a lot more room away from the table - partially because of the size of the swing and partially because I needed more time to react. If you watch that video, my coach has just as much trouble (i.e. very little) blocking my massive loop as Fabian does in my WSA video.

Now I have a shorter swing. For my third ball attack, any popups get put away without much of a backswing (as per my WSA video). Away from the table however I have a bent-arm version of the swing in the video above, i.e. much bigger and much more powerful.

I think that as long as the arm comes through quickly and the contact on the ball includes a brushing motion, you can generate speed and spin. The big stroke is really important for booming winners but a relative beginner won't profit from that stroke early on. Get your consistency high with a shortened backswing stroke then look at expanding it for more power if necessary.

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2015, 08:36 
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The real issue is where you are looping the ball from. If you actually looped it closer to the table, then you would have been forced to shorten/retime the backswing automatically even while taking the ball with a straighter arm. It has less to do with the straightness of the arm and everything to do with adjusting the backswing to time the ball properly. IT all depends on what you are looking for. Ultimately, you have to put the ball on the table, but you have to be able to wipe out slow balls over the table.

On the other hand, you are also fairly healthy. I have lots of knee issues so I have been forced to get as much out of my arm as possible. Here is my loop vs. block closer to the table. It begins at 7 mins in or so. As you can see, my backswing is much shorter than yours but I still straighten my arm to achieve it.



The reason a "beginner" should learn it is that habits are hard to break in this sport. You have the straight arm experience and while you currently devalue it, you will appreciate it again when you need to do killer third balls. Players who never have it find it difficult to acquire later.

Shortening a stroke not as hard as making it larger - trust me on this one.

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2015, 22:46 
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You are showing some great improvement, well done. In addition to slowing the frequency of the balls, I'd also suggest showing the speed of the balls. They look as they they are going the speed of an opponents attacking shot. I think you would be better getting consistency at the more common shots for players of your level (and mine) which is slower topspin but also pushes with mild to medium backspin.
In regard to your stroke, it's close but something is not quite right but I'm struggling to pick what it is. I'm wondering whether your hips are stalling at point of impact rather than turning right through the shot. I'm also wondering whether your weight might be either in the middle of your stance rather then transferring from right leg to left. Also whether you might be a little too upright rather than weight slightly forward with weight on your toes, not sure, i can't quite pick it but hoping that someone else can. Definately improved since first vid.

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2015, 04:40 
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Cobalt wrote:
You are showing some great improvement, well done. In addition to slowing the frequency of the balls, I'd also suggest showing the speed of the balls. They look as they they are going the speed of an opponents attacking shot. I think you would be better getting consistency at the more common shots for players of your level (and mine) which is slower topspin but also pushes with mild to medium backspin.
In regard to your stroke, it's close but something is not quite right but I'm struggling to pick what it is. I'm wondering whether your hips are stalling at point of impact rather than turning right through the shot. I'm also wondering whether your weight might be either in the middle of your stance rather then transferring from right leg to left. Also whether you might be a little too upright rather than weight slightly forward with weight on your toes, not sure, i can't quite pick it but hoping that someone else can. Definately improved since first vid.



I agree 100% - my hope is that if he takes the new camera angles and slows down the ball feed and frequency, it will help out. In general, the slow motion has been more misleading than I think most of us realized if the final few seconds do show what is happening at regular pace and aren't really also too fast.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2015, 08:09 
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Alright folks, as requested, here's a non slo mo vid, with slower ball speed and frequency. The did one from behind too but it got screwed up. Will try another soon.

In this vid I experiment with a couple things: slower/faster swing, cross court and down the line, and starting from a different position. Maybe doing too much at once, but gotta keep it fun, ya know?

https://vimeo.com/130489506


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2015, 08:27 
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Hahaha - I can see the level of difficulty/pace is boring you. Just be sure to make 100% of the loops if that is the case.

Will wait for the view from the back. The main elements of the front view look fine.

Do note that when you move, you sometimes use mostly your arm, drop your shoulder or some other element gets compromised. It's part of the reason why it's best to avoid moving until the stroke is so well grooved that your consistency really bores you. You can increase the frequency slightly but keep the ball speed the same if you really feel so bored that you want to incorporate movement but your consistency has to be pretty high as well given that the ball is hardly moving.

Varying where you aim the loop is fine. Switching speeds and ball trajectories, reasonable. Moving, not so much.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2015, 08:40 
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Yes, yes, I suppose you're right :) I will chill out and keep it simple.

For the behind video, should I put camera directly behind or off to the right a bit?


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2015, 09:23 
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Smacktooth wrote:
Yes, yes, I suppose you're right :) I will chill out and keep it simple.

For the behind video, should I put camera directly behind or off to the right a bit?


More behind though to the right is fine as well but the camera must be behind you. We are looking for your balance and how you turn your body and use/time your backswing.

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