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I think that pro players roll rather than push serve returns
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Author:  glennholder [ 27 Nov 2013, 15:47 ]
Post subject:  I think that pro players roll rather than push serve returns
Hi guys,

agooding2 once said this:

"The roll is when you contact the ball with an open face, and let the ball roll off the rubber. The key is not to hit too hard or try to spin the ball too much. The ball should just clear the net with a low trajectory."


When you watch pro players return heavy backspin/sidespin serves, they seem to be doing exactly as agooding2 said above, it appears to be a roll and not a push. Please see the image below, their serve return motion appears to follow the roll illustration, they don't seem to be pushing with a lot of spin at all, they seem to be just horizontally placing the bat rather than pushing quickly down.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Attachments:
roll or push.JPG
roll or push.JPG [ 89.23 KiB | Viewed 6595 times ]
Author:  zeio [ 27 Nov 2013, 16:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
Yet another debatable definition of the enigmatic stroke.
Author:  auzcar [ 27 Nov 2013, 16:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
I wouldn't really say that the picture shows it 100% correctly to be honest, what we in Sweden would call a roll is more like a short lifting stroke, not a loop and not a flat hit. Usually done against backspin which returns a very light topspin ball or pretty much no spin at all. The best answer in the linked thread would be this one:

"a 'roll' is just a passive topspin stroke on either wing, not a looped topspin, not a flat hit, just right in between, a stroke that just keeps the ball in play, used in rallies when a player is out of position (the opponent) you can 'roll' the ball to where he is not, ie very low risk, if you have worked an opening, you can 'roll' a winner."
Author:  vanjr [ 27 Nov 2013, 21:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
Roll vs flip? Seems like a roll is just a conservative flip to me.

Well I learn something everyday.
Author:  Elvis56 [ 28 Nov 2013, 18:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
I would say first stroke in the image is a chop and second one a push.
Author:  glennholder [ 28 Nov 2013, 19:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
interesting what Elvis 56 says, there is indeed a very fine line between these shots!
Author:  mynamenotbob [ 28 Nov 2013, 19:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
auzcar wrote:
I wouldn't really say that the picture shows it 100% correctly to be honest, what we in Sweden would call a roll is more like a short lifting stroke, not a loop and not a flat hit. Usually done against backspin which returns a very light topspin ball or pretty much no spin at all. The best answer in the linked thread would be this one:

"a 'roll' is just a passive topspin stroke on either wing, not a looped topspin, not a flat hit, just right in between, a stroke that just keeps the ball in play, used in rallies when a player is out of position (the opponent) you can 'roll' the ball to where he is not, ie very low risk, if you have worked an opening, you can 'roll' a winner."

What He Zhi Wen does against Gionis' chops in this match is a roll.
Author:  foam [ 28 Nov 2013, 20:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
Hi mate a couple things are goin on here. First if you take the ball very early off the table as its still rising sharply and only move your bat on the horizontal plan it will still generate backspin and a fair bit of it. That's just because the ball rising upwards into the rubber will spring back out with backspin, contrary to taking the ball at its peak height which will give you no spin. The other factor is when playing that early and that low to the table there simply is no room to move the blade downwards.

If you want to see the effect yourself hold an inverted rubbered blade over a table and throw a ball with your other hand bouncing off the table into the rubber while rising up, you'll see that when the ball lands it'll spin with backspin even though you didn't move the blade.
Author:  Fab [ 28 Nov 2013, 21:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
Pro players take the ball in the rising phase when they play a return. So they can use the spin that is still on the ball and give it back.
They usually do a short and fast movement with wrist and forearm. Just playing a "roll" is not what they do in my opinion. Because only with wrist and forearm you can control the spin on the ball.

Both strokes in the picture are a kind of push. Chop ist behind the table (as far as I know).
Here is differentiated between the way of the movement. In my opinion this is not the core. It is more about the angle you use when playing the return. If you have horizontal angle of the racket (to the table) you can generate a lot of backspin with the push. If it is vertical there is only little backspin possible.
Of course the angle depends on the spin of the service. Against a topspin serve it is almost impossible to play a flat return with a horizontal angle. And against heavy backspin you cannot play with a vertical angle.

Some professionals use little sidespin when playing a return to keep the ball short. This gives them more control of the ball and they reduce the risk that the ball is too long.
Author:  iskandar taib [ 24 Feb 2014, 00:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: I think that pro players roll rather than push serve ret
Yeah, I've always thought a "roll" was a lifting stroke. If you use it against a push or chop you'd end up with slight topspin rather than backspin. With a push, you get varying amounts of backspin (assuming inverted rubber). In the illustration, the second stroke is a push. The first isn't used much, because you'd end up hitting the table.

Best advice I was given: Push aggressively. That is, push to different parts of the table, vary the spin, use some sidespin, mix in a roll now and then.

Iskandar
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