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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 13:19 
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Lightzy wrote:
So I assure you that the ball is never over the table. I hope that is enough :)

As for your question, I'm currently training the prodigy to be a good shoe fetcher and returner of toys to baskets. Where he may develop from there is anyone's guess :P


Yeah. We can’t really tell with the angle. I showed what made me feel the ball and toss were over the table.

Again, that issue isn’t really important in practice. Serving in a match is different.

Teaching the kid useful skills. At 15 my daughter could use some of those lessons. hahahahah.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 14:30 
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Good to see lightzy having fun. The serves are a bit high and not of optimal length. Serving to the sideline extra short is a good tactic against players who can't move but it usually exposes you to around the net shots and attacks and pushes from angles you don't practice against when done against better players. The serves have decent spin but without seeing the quality of the motion that produced them, it is hard to judge the deception which is an important element of whether the serve is tricky to return or not. All in all, the serves are about the quality I expected from someone like lightzy given how uncouth a bastard he is when talking about the things he doesn't like about table tennis and the things I have read him recommend.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 15:31 
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Hi Lightzy,

Thanks for taking my response out of context. Much appreciated. Was the middle bit too sensible? Must try harder :)

Lightzy wrote:
Quote:
First of all, your ire is misplaced, because your context is incorrect. I was not responding to Carl ABOUT Carl but rather about some other people, and he, I believe, knows this. Carl respects the right of privacy, he does not demand in a bullying way. He asks once, and if the answer is no, he continues with his life. He perhaps remains skeptical, which is his right, but that is where it ends.


As Carl was the only one calling you on your video, I am not sure who else you may be referring to here.

Lightzy wrote:
Quote:
That said, the ball is not over the table and so there is no illegality. Perhaps you simply misinterpret the rules of service. The ENTIRE DAMN ARM can be over the table so long as the toss is vertical and behind the end line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06btFlP48E&t=5s - 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhaAx6nwtnw - 2:17.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zN5GVSIMzI&t=552s - 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VA36jKzJY - 0:30

Unless the rules have changed, feel free to apologize. If they have, I freely admit error, apologize, and promise to make you a personally dedicated video where you can see the toss and motion from start to finish.


You may have missed this, but I am an (admittedly low level) accredited umpire. I see people serving incorrectly almost every time I go to play at the local club where people have mostly been playing for a year or 2, let alone at the community centre I volunteer at which gets casuals coming along.

I am well aware of the actual rules as I have passed an umpire's exam and review the rules every now and then. I still maintain that it is not possible to say that the ball is not over the table and in that case as an umpire going by the rules I would have to either first call a let then fault the serve on its repetition or or go straight to faulting the serve first time. So no apology from me :)


Lightzy wrote:
Quote:
It is your problem, one inherent in these forums apparently. Notice that throughout, I didn't say to you "you may not question anything I say or do, for where are your credentials, newb? show me that you're at least 2500 strength", and if the tone of my post is not too nice it is because I'm entirely *disgusted* by this mindset.
I think it is so because moderators have not been consistent about watching over posters right to have no frivolous demands made of them which may construe a violation of privacy.


I don't know where you got the idea that we request credentials of being over 2500 here. You may be getting your fora mixed up.

FWIW I am currently RC just under 1400.

People can ask, and other people can ignore or refuse. It's a free internet after all. What is that famous quote ah yes "On the internet no-one knows you are a dog".

I almost kind of like how you change tack whenever you are pinned down irrefutably, to keep things bubbling along.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 19:00 
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NextLevel wrote:
Good to see lightzy having fun. The serves are a bit high and not of optimal length. Serving to the sideline extra short is a good tactic against players who can't move but it usually exposes you to around the net shots and attacks and pushes from angles you don't practice against when done against better players. The serves have decent spin but without seeing the quality of the motion that produced them, it is hard to judge the deception which is an important element of whether the serve is tricky to return or not. All in all, the serves are about the quality I expected from someone like lightzy given how uncouth a bastard he is when talking about the things he doesn't like about table tennis and the things I have read him recommend.


1) height and length are as close to optimal and mostly consistent. One 'trick' serve that pops up and hits the white line isn't indicative

2) Yeah the trick serve is very contextual, for when players are out of position, not expecting anything like it or are simply incapable of doing the 'reverse pendulum serve wrist snap with arm outstretched' that you need to do to return this serve such as to likely end the point. It also has the exact same serve motion as the long fast side/under pendulum, even the same speed of movement, so when I'm pretty sure that'll confuse them I might use it. As you know even a second's hesitation in answering the serve, especially this one, is a big problem.
Also I'm counting on nobody expecting it because it is so dangerous to the server because of inconsistency.

3) The technique I use for deception is to stutter the motion in a way that attempts imperceptibility as most of the backswing is hidden behind the body. It is the same body rotation speed but the arm speed is stuttered.. umm.. held in place? I'm not sure I can explain it without showing and I do not wish to show. The wrist movement is identical also. The difference is in how much to truly allow the body rotation to speed up the arm. And of course making sure the ball lands on the same spot on my side of the table with serves that have similar motion but different spin. It is another element that adds a fraction of a second of hesitation.

4) And was your conclusion that I'm indeed probably higher rated than you? :)
Don't get me wrong, I like you, I think you're a hard worker and an honest person all around from the videos of u I've seen (I wasn't actively looking mind you. I happened on this forum looking for an answer to a question and there it was), but I do not appreciate the idea that people owe you something because you had a bad experience with someone misleading you in the past. If you get over that we can be the best of friends, hopefully.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 22:23 
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Lightzy wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Good to see lightzy having fun. The serves are a bit high and not of optimal length. Serving to the sideline extra short is a good tactic against players who can't move but it usually exposes you to around the net shots and attacks and pushes from angles you don't practice against when done against better players. The serves have decent spin but without seeing the quality of the motion that produced them, it is hard to judge the deception which is an important element of whether the serve is tricky to return or not. All in all, the serves are about the quality I expected from someone like lightzy given how uncouth a bastard he is when talking about the things he doesn't like about table tennis and the things I have read him recommend.


1) height and length are as close to optimal and mostly consistent. One 'trick' serve that pops up and hits the white line isn't indicative

2) Yeah the trick serve is very contextual, for when players are out of position, not expecting anything like it or are simply incapable of doing the 'reverse pendulum serve wrist snap with arm outstretched' that you need to do to return this serve such as to likely end the point. It also has the exact same serve motion as the long fast side/under pendulum, even the same speed of movement, so when I'm pretty sure that'll confuse them I might use it. As you know even a second's hesitation in answering the serve, especially this one, is a big problem.
Also I'm counting on nobody expecting it because it is so dangerous to the server because of inconsistency.

3) The technique I use for deception is to stutter the motion in a way that attempts imperceptibility as most of the backswing is hidden behind the body. It is the same body rotation speed but the arm speed is stuttered.. umm.. held in place? I'm not sure I can explain it without showing and I do not wish to show. The wrist movement is identical also. The difference is in how much to truly allow the body rotation to speed up the arm. And of course making sure the ball lands on the same spot on my side of the table with serves that have similar motion but different spin. It is another element that adds a fraction of a second of hesitation.

4) And was your conclusion that I'm indeed probably higher rated than you? :)
Don't get me wrong, I like you, I think you're a hard worker and an honest person all around from the videos of u I've seen (I wasn't actively looking mind you. I happened on this forum looking for an answer to a question and there it was), but I do not appreciate the idea that people owe you something because you had a bad experience with someone misleading you in the past. If you get over that we can be the best of friends, hopefully.


Lightzy,

Most people who know what I do know why I do it. The people who go to the lenghts you do to make it out like I am asking for something else are doing It for their own reasons. You don't owe me anything. I have never said you owe me anything. I have said if you are going to comment so authoritatively as an uncouth bastard on various threads about so many things, including saying things that sometimes could be very misleading if there is no context, it is best to let us see what you are up to so your statements can be taken in context. As Carl points out, people are usually less like uncouth bastards when they and others can see them play. Before that they like to pretend they know what Ma Long does. When others can see that they are not Ma long, they realize that it is someone who thinks you can magically learn good technique by talking and doesn't know how high level technique is *really developed*. In other words, we just want to make it less likely that people talk like assholes. The problem for you is that you enjoy being an asshole. Nothing wrong with that as many people do.

This video is more than sufficient.

1. Height are length for optimal serving is usually double bounce short or slightly half long with the ability to vary both and confuse the opponent. Keeping very short serves low is difficult and the camera angle might be misleading but I don't get the impression you succeed and I suspect your serves would be susceptible to attacks.

2. The serves off the sidelines are fine and everyone has a variant. But the way you describe it oversells it. And whether they are being aided your tossing over the table is not clear.

3. The technique sounds interesting but as a coach and a player and an observer, I am aware of the limits of describing what I do. It is quite possible that you have 2500 level serves that look very similar and are fast and tough to respond to. The height and length of the short serves leaves me skeptical.

4. Your serves are slightly better than I would have given you credit given for on the basis of the spin quality but without seeing the motion that produced them that is neither here nor there. In my experience it is whether the motion conveys the notion of effort or spin that is sometimes more valuable than the actual spin on the ball. And of course whether the spin is more or less than the effort conveyed.

To recap: you don't owe me anything. This video is more than sufficient and comparing the comments you have made about it to what most players and coaches I have seen would focus on gives me an idea of your playing level. I don't think there is any doubt whether I am an honest person or not. I think your labelling your YouTube Channel "uncouth bastard" shows that you are more aware if the source of the problem and are just trying to talk yourself out of it. Table Tennis is not physics.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:22 
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I want to say this, since it seems that it is being presented that the serves with the very high angle are effective when the opponent is not expecting them. At least I think that was presented in all those words. But those serves are telegraphed. In an earlier post I noted how, on those serves with the high angle, the server's whole body is further down the side of the table, closer to the net. This makes it clear where the server is directing the serve.

Note, on the first few serves, at some point in the toss and serve motion, the server's body moves back far enough so that we can see the end line. On all the serves that go off the side of the table (all serves after 18 seconds, including the serves in the segment about placement) the server's torso is blocking the view of the end line. So, body position alone telegraphs where the serve is most likely to go.

And NextLevel is right that the first few serves where the intention is to show the effect of spin on the ball, the serves are slow and high. Which makes it much easier for spin to affect the trajectory of the ball. But the spin is still fairly decent.

But, this is really about the statement about the bounce always being in the same place for deception of placement:

I don’t know that that is actually even remotely happening.

Here:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

These are stills from the video. The time stamp for each is in the photo. There is one for each serve in the video. The freeze is from as close to the bounce as I was able to get without too much hassle.

You can clearly see that the ball does not bounce in the same place, or even near the same place on any of them. You can also see that his body position is completely different for the serves with the higher angle than it is for the ones where he is trying to get the ball to come back to the net.

So sometimes philosophy and practice are not actually aligned. :)

But of course, I could have misunderstood what Lightzy was talking about when referring to the ball bouncing in the same place on his side while going to different placements for deception. :)


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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 05:12 
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Lesssseeee...

Lgty rubs Carl the wrong way... ditto to Debater, retriever, and NL...

Lgty is running up a quick 4 to 0 score...

Reasonable person assessment is Lgty is causing the wrong kind of trouble...

But what the heck, I am just a trouble maker myself...

Yet, one day, HaggisV may enter the game and it would then be game over unless Hookshot gets there first.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 09:24 
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Oh yeah, the serves from the pics Carl made stills sure look dodgy... but I reckon they are more dodgy in the pre 2005 old country though.

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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2018, 00:36 
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Carl, in the actual practice serves (in the beginning) you can obviously see I'm trying to make the ball hit the same place on my side of the table.

In the trick serve it is completely beside the point where on my end the ball falls because the serve is OBVIOUS as soon as it leaves the bat. I can't hide a motion so obvious as to serve the ball off the backhand side of the table. My goal there is to have it land as close to the edge of the table on the opponents backhand side as possible and veer away more with spin. It obviously requires practice to always land the ball on the table, which is the first priority. Accuracy in other respects comes after this is consistent, which it mostly is by now.

I'm sorry you wasted time cropping images to make a point that isn't really an issue. Could have asked me and I've had told you that the idea of hitting my side of the table at the same spot only applied to the serves practiced for most of the practice (back/side spins). That's also something that requires practice and is never perfect.

And the name for the channel (just a joke channel anyway) is amusing to me because I'm obviously the only actually sensible one, when some others seem like professional outragers :)
Anyway here's my son practicing his topspin serve:



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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2018, 01:59 
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