OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 23 Mar 2017, 09:51


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 05:03 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5382
Location: USA
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 105 times
Thanks so_devo,
Hard evidence. :) That is what I try to go by.


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 17:37 
Online
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
I found this on youtube. I don't know who the guy is and I don't offer it as any sort of proof. Rather, I just post it as an example of how I approach backspin serves. To do a heavy chop serve I always aim to hit the ball with the leading edge. Often I'm sure I contact the ball closer to the middle of the bat but the ones which really 'bite' are contacted closer to the leading edge. Perhaps it's just me but I cannot get heavy spin hitting with the trailing edge: I can get some spin but it is nowhere near as heavy.



Last edited by carbonman on 02 Jun 2012, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 20:02 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 29 Dec 2009, 06:58
Posts: 97
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Well I think thats proof!

_________________
Re-impact Tachi+Juic Turbo 999 blk. BH- GD Talon Oxred.
Hallmark Aurora FH-GlobeNat 999 blk BH-Giant Talon Ox red.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 01:05 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5382
Location: USA
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 105 times
Proof of what?
Both serves did the same on the table.
What is the difference? His strokes are not consistant either.
BS :n:

What is he implying about the leading edge and the trailing edge? That the ball has more room to roll if hit with the leading edge? PROOVE IT! Use the method discussed. Clean the rubber, show me the tracks or marks left by the ball.
He has proved NOTHING. If this was a science project, he would get an F. Failure. :n: :rofl:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 08:22 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 29 Dec 2009, 06:58
Posts: 97
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Try it yourself. You get way more spin contacting with leading edge. Its not rocket science. That is proof enough for me.

_________________
Re-impact Tachi+Juic Turbo 999 blk. BH- GD Talon Oxred.
Hallmark Aurora FH-GlobeNat 999 blk BH-Giant Talon Ox red.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 08:35 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5382
Location: USA
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 105 times
I am not saying you do not get more spin hitting near the edge, I am saying the ball does NOT roll on the rubber.

I am saying, you will not be able to pick where you hit on the bat if you play me. You might be able to on serves where you control everything but you will not be able to do that countering my loops.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 09:19 
Online
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
Actually Hookshot if you go back to the beginning of this topic you will see that it began with you querying my suggestion that one should try to contact the leading edge. Initially there was no mention of rolling on the rubber (I made a point of not offering a scientific explanation).

I'm not quite sure of the relevance of the second part of your post but I can assure you that I can pick where I contact the ball during a rally. I can do this whilst chopping (trailing edge for float) and also blocking (higher up on the bat for speed). :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 09:39 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 17:03
Posts: 144
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Is it possible that the reason for higher spin on leading edge and lower spin on trailing edge is simply due to the fact that at the point of contact with the leading edge the speed of the bat is roughly at it's maximum? lf contact with the ball is delayed ie. contact by trailing edge then on most swings the bat has slowed down considerably by that time.

_________________
Blade: Andro Kinetic Supreme Zylon/Kiso Hinoki OFF-
FH: Hexer HD 1.7 mm sponge
BH: CTT National Pogo OX
Style: FH counterhitter, BH disruptor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 10:49 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31026
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1320 times
Been thanked: 805 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
I've tried this in the past, as a coach suggested this to me as well. I tried it, and it did indeed make a difference, although I'm not sure why either. I played a few grades lower at the time, and found that at this level heavy spin was more effective than disguishing it (although if I had spent more time on it, it may have become more viable), but at higher levels, disguishing variation of spin tends to be more effective.

I'm quite convinced that hookshot is right about the 'rolling' part... the ball does not roll on the rubber, so there's likely to be another reason... I think Malleus is onto something... it may simply be a timing issue or a bat angle issue.

Edit: I'm referring to serves only here.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 11:33 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5382
Location: USA
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 105 times
I do believe there is more spin when you hit near the edge. It is because you are out of the sweet spot. This increases the dwell time, more spin. However, like I said, it is not feasible at higher level counter looping. If the sweet spot is 3" dia, then you have 1.5" 0n either side. You would have to be capable of keeping a group, (contact on the bat) of 1" during countering to give a 1/4" margin of saftey. Try playing with a one inch diameter bat. You can not do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 11:34 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31026
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1320 times
Been thanked: 805 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
Sorry, my post above referred to serving only...

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 13:39 
Online
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
If it were solely a sweet-spot issue then there would be no difference between hitting with the leading or trailing edges. What I was suggesting is that, for me at least, I can get far more spin using the leading edge rather than the trailing edge (I don't have a causal explanation as to why this is so). I think others were claiming that either there is no difference which edge you use or, that you can get more spin using the trailing edge.

For me a similar principle applies to heavy looping against chop. To lift heavy chop I try to hit the ball very fine nearer the leading edge. If I use the trailing edge the ball goes straight down. When counter-looping I contact more towards the centre and thicker.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2012, 15:00 
Offline
Reverend Reversal
User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2008, 07:41
Posts: 328
Location: Merrill, Wisconsin, USA
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 10 times
I have been reading this thread with interest. My findings in connection with imparting spin on the ball have been the same as others. Allow me to throw out one more possibility, which I am not sure is correct by the laws of physics, so, you guys that know physics better than I do, correct me if this idea is ludicrous...but could this leading edge/trailing edge thing have anything to do with the amount of mass coming into the ball?

On an underspin FH pendulum serve, for example, if you cut under the ball at the south pole area, or slightly forward of it it, and hit it with the leading 30% or so of the blade, you have most of the mass of the bat still coming into the ball, which means more power and drive into the ball. If you catch the ball with the last 30% of the bat or so, most of the incoming mass of the blade has already passed by the ball, and what you have left is the mass of the blade "pulling" rather than "driving into" the ball. Could this make a difference?

Now, I understand that such a service stroke is almost completely "brush" as opposed to "hit". But does that then cause this dynamic to be even more significant? I'd be interested in what you guys think about this.

Another dynamic which I think is significant has already been mentioned: for some serves, if you are hitting the ball with the trailing edge, you have already passed the "maximum power" part of the stroke (especially if the serve is very "snap of the wrist dependent"), and it will show in the amount of spin imparted (or not imparted). On the other hand, hitting the ball with the leading edge might be at just the beginning of the "maximum power" stroke==again, especially if the serve is very "wrist dependent".

OK, my two cents worth. If I'm full of meadow muffins, let me know. :)

_________________
USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Victas 401 1.8 black BH - Dornenglanz OX red

Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 2.1 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red

Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 2 2.2 black BH - Viper OX red


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2012, 15:57 
Offline
Rambo Looper Spin First Ask Questions Later
Rambo Looper Spin First Ask Questions Later
User avatar

Joined: 02 Apr 2007, 14:36
Posts: 5001
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 117 times
Glad to see you chime in Jim. These kind of threads provoke thoughts (and other scheize as well!) and are great.

Creating spin is all about acelleration and timing of the bat to make a high speed right before and during impact and as you said, one must strike under the ball or even a tad forward of "bottom" to get max spin and still keep it short.

The only reason I can see in hte whole "leading Edge" thing is that some people may have better timing striking the ball with their max speed when the blade and ball meet near the edge. Myself, I tend to hit more balls near the leading edge, way too close for my comfort and safety. Personally, I do not buy the "Mass" explaination, as I am convinced spin is all about acelleration before and through impact, timing, proper impact point on ball, and bat speed at impact. That is only what Der_Echte believes and I cannot prove anything either way, nor will I discourage anyone from voicing their view. I just don't believe mass is a factor on serve in TT, but maybe in baseball hitting. I am interested in discussing this and anything that brings about world peace or chaos.

When I look at my bat after serving a couple dozen balls in practice, I see marks within a 5 cm wide swath from front leading edge to trailing edge, with many more towards the front. I wish I can get my timing to be a little more away from the edge. Striking the ball consistantly within 1/2 cm of the leading edge is too close to avoid error.

_________________
Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon FH Tibhar Evolution MX-P BH Nexy Elips

President, Korea Foreign TTC
http://www.facebook.com/koreaforeignttc

Hit us up on FB or the Forum

Janitor at Nexy USA
http://www.NexyUSA.com
http://www.facebook.com/Nexyusa/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2012, 16:18 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5382
Location: USA
Has thanked: 61 times
Been thanked: 105 times
Der, you actually check the marks like I do. I would like to see someone check after countering 20 of my loops. If you can make a 3 inch group, you are flat amazing. If you can make a one inch group, I will quit table tennis. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: