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Heavy Underspin Serves?
https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=24040		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 00:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
I use Dr Evil, Pogo and other pips to make some good chop serves. That has nothing to do with the ball rolling on the blade. Why do you think it rolls on pips? Did you try cleaning the rubber and looking for marks?
Author:  mynamenotbob [ 02 Jun 2012, 00:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
so_devo wrote:
I do agree with hookshot that there is little or no roll of the ball across the bat, except one notable exception; short pimples can achieve spinny underspin with this method (my doubles partner uses Dr Evil and can absolutely load his short chop serves).

What blade does your doubles partner use? I remember noting that a number of his serves being put into the net on that video you posted.
Author:  hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 00:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
As far as hitting on the leading edge or trailing edge "on purpose" while looping, I would have to see it. I have checked my coaches bats, students bats, other players bats and the contact area is always centered. On control loopers it is nearer the handle, some loopers nearer the tip. Some may think they can hit nearer the edge but I would like to see them do it in normal play. Yes, hitting near one edge can be done while serving when you have full control. Like to see you do it when trying to counter loop against me. And dont just "think" you can do it, use the method for looking for a rolling ball, check the marks left on a clean rubber.
Author:  hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
If you and your partner counter loop 20 balls under controlled conditions at say 80% power, then you check the pattern of marks on the rubber, how big do you think the group size will be?
I bet you it will be at least 3 inches in diameter with some wild ones outside that.
That means you could move the group about 1 1/2 inch to an edge and only the wild ones would miss the bat. However, if you try to move the center of the group to 1 inch from the edge, about 1/4 of the balls will miss the blade.
I gave that 3 inch group size under controlled countering. In a match, that size will be even larger. I check the pattern size all the time on myself, students, other players so if you think you can make a one inch group, go for it. Since the sweetspot is over 3 inches dia on most bats, you need to have your group outside the sweetspot to make a difference on dwell. That gives you 1 1/2 inch to put your group in. You will need a one inch group to stay inside the 1 1/2" and leave a 1/4" safty margim. :)
Author:  Der_Echte [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
C'Mon Hookshot, ask them if they feel lucky.

We wanna hear it from you big guy.

Absolute baloney that the ball rolls accross the rubber on a loop. At best, you will get a slight oval if your racket speed is high enough and you are brushing. It is too easy to wipe the rubber and look at it after a couple loops. Same for serving. Play in a dusty place, wipe rubber, and serve 25 balls. Look where the marks are. Sometimes, when my timing is too late, my marks are close to the leading edge. I get teh same speed and spin, but I almost missed the serve when I struck it there. Spin on serve is a function of the bat speed at impact and how you struck the ball, period.
Author:  hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
Der, :clap: :up:
Author:  Der_Echte [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
I get the arguement that impacting the ball on serve near your thumb where racket speed is less contributes to ease in making low spin/no spin serves. I get the arguement that impacting the ball on serve near the tip where bat speed is higher gets you more spin. Schlager says this as well, but in his vid, he tells you that it is a very low percentage thing to try serving with that part of the bat.

As for spin or power on loops, I do not lack any of that. It is not so much where on hte bat I impact the ball. I am an amature player, no pro, but I can amp up either spin and speed or both, no problem. it is a function of being in position, getting down, using the right swing plane, timing and using the whole body together. Where ball hits on racket makes no difference. Hopefully, i hit the sweet spot most of the time, sometimes, my positioning and ability to setup is not optimal and I hit shots under pressure, so maybe I miss sweet spot sometimes.
Author:  Der_Echte [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
Hookshot, I am still waiting for you to ask peoples if they feel lucky.
Author:  so_devo [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
mynamenotbob wrote:
so_devo wrote:
I do agree with hookshot that there is little or no roll of the ball across the bat, except one notable exception; short pimples can achieve spinny underspin with this method (my doubles partner uses Dr Evil and can absolutely load his short chop serves).

What blade does your doubles partner use? I remember noting that a number of his serves being put into the net on that video you posted.


It is a very cheap, slow, premade blade that came from a department store then got the rubbers removed. 2 for £5 apparently, one still at home as a spare.
Author:  so_devo [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
hookshot wrote:
I use Dr Evil, Pogo and other pips to make some good chop serves. That has nothing to do with the ball rolling on the blade. Why do you think it rolls on pips? Did you try cleaning the rubber and looking for marks?


I have Dr evil on my hardbat and have this perception, especially as the contact time seems very long. I think I remember a post by Baal about it. I will try a new ball on a clean bat and try.

I'm not saying it rolls far ......
Author:  so_devo [ 02 Jun 2012, 01:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
Der_Echte wrote:
Absolute baloney that the ball rolls accross the rubber on a loop.


Der, I don't think anyone suggested it did on a loop..... just a debate about serves
Author:  hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 02:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
Yes, this thread is about serves but typically, the ones that think the ball rolls on a serve also think it rolls on chops and loops. There has been discussion before about rolling on loops and chops. There are many that believe that including one very high level coach I know of. I made the challenge of using a "Little" talc or baby powder to see the marks. One guy sent me a pic by PM of a black rubber with about 20 lines accross the whole blade. They all started withen 1/4" of the edge of the blade and ran off the other side. I wont give his name. LOL.
Author:  mynamenotbob [ 02 Jun 2012, 02:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
In Germany, long pippers have a serve called a "Rollaufschlag" or roll serve where the ball rolls diagonally across the blade face. I imagine this would work with Dr. Evil also. But it's more of a deception serve than heavy underspin.
Author:  hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 02:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
I am waiting for the pics. ;)

If I get time, I will try this with LPs. I should have some LP with sponge and OX I can try. Maybe it works but I do not think it will roll with OX SP.
Author:  so_devo [ 02 Jun 2012, 03:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Heavy Underspin Serves?
hookshot wrote:
I am waiting for the pics. ;)

If I get time, I will try this with LPs. I should have some LP with sponge and OX I can try. Maybe it works but I do not think it will roll with OX SP.


I like the idea of hard evidence. I will do this serving experiment with inverted, ox sp and ox lp. Right or wrong I will post. May take me a week or so though.
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