Thanks so_devo,
Hard evidence.
That is what I try to go by.
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| Heavy Underspin Serves? https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=24040 |
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| Author: | hookshot [ 02 Jun 2012, 05:03 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Thanks so_devo, Hard evidence. That is what I try to go by.
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| Author: | carbonman [ 02 Jun 2012, 17:37 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
I found this on youtube. I don't know who the guy is and I don't offer it as any sort of proof. Rather, I just post it as an example of how I approach backspin serves. To do a heavy chop serve I always aim to hit the ball with the leading edge. Often I'm sure I contact the ball closer to the middle of the bat but the ones which really 'bite' are contacted closer to the leading edge. Perhaps it's just me but I cannot get heavy spin hitting with the trailing edge: I can get some spin but it is nowhere near as heavy. |
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| Author: | pakman [ 02 Jun 2012, 20:02 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Well I think thats proof! |
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| Author: | hookshot [ 03 Jun 2012, 01:05 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Proof of what? Both serves did the same on the table. What is the difference? His strokes are not consistant either. BS  What is he implying about the leading edge and the trailing edge? That the ball has more room to roll if hit with the leading edge? PROOVE IT! Use the method discussed. Clean the rubber, show me the tracks or marks left by the ball. He has proved NOTHING. If this was a science project, he would get an F. Failure. 
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| Author: | pakman [ 03 Jun 2012, 08:22 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Try it yourself. You get way more spin contacting with leading edge. Its not rocket science. That is proof enough for me. |
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| Author: | hookshot [ 03 Jun 2012, 08:35 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
I am not saying you do not get more spin hitting near the edge, I am saying the ball does NOT roll on the rubber. I am saying, you will not be able to pick where you hit on the bat if you play me. You might be able to on serves where you control everything but you will not be able to do that countering my loops. |
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| Author: | carbonman [ 03 Jun 2012, 09:19 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Actually Hookshot if you go back to the beginning of this topic you will see that it began with you querying my suggestion that one should try to contact the leading edge. Initially there was no mention of rolling on the rubber (I made a point of not offering a scientific explanation). I'm not quite sure of the relevance of the second part of your post but I can assure you that I can pick where I contact the ball during a rally. I can do this whilst chopping (trailing edge for float) and also blocking (higher up on the bat for speed).
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| Author: | Malleus [ 03 Jun 2012, 09:39 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Is it possible that the reason for higher spin on leading edge and lower spin on trailing edge is simply due to the fact that at the point of contact with the leading edge the speed of the bat is roughly at it's maximum? lf contact with the ball is delayed ie. contact by trailing edge then on most swings the bat has slowed down considerably by that time. |
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| Author: | haggisv [ 03 Jun 2012, 10:49 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
I've tried this in the past, as a coach suggested this to me as well. I tried it, and it did indeed make a difference, although I'm not sure why either. I played a few grades lower at the time, and found that at this level heavy spin was more effective than disguishing it (although if I had spent more time on it, it may have become more viable), but at higher levels, disguishing variation of spin tends to be more effective. I'm quite convinced that hookshot is right about the 'rolling' part... the ball does not roll on the rubber, so there's likely to be another reason... I think Malleus is onto something... it may simply be a timing issue or a bat angle issue. Edit: I'm referring to serves only here. |
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| Author: | hookshot [ 03 Jun 2012, 11:33 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
I do believe there is more spin when you hit near the edge. It is because you are out of the sweet spot. This increases the dwell time, more spin. However, like I said, it is not feasible at higher level counter looping. If the sweet spot is 3" dia, then you have 1.5" 0n either side. You would have to be capable of keeping a group, (contact on the bat) of 1" during countering to give a 1/4" margin of saftey. Try playing with a one inch diameter bat. You can not do it. |
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| Author: | haggisv [ 03 Jun 2012, 11:34 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Sorry, my post above referred to serving only... |
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| Author: | carbonman [ 03 Jun 2012, 13:39 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
If it were solely a sweet-spot issue then there would be no difference between hitting with the leading or trailing edges. What I was suggesting is that, for me at least, I can get far more spin using the leading edge rather than the trailing edge (I don't have a causal explanation as to why this is so). I think others were claiming that either there is no difference which edge you use or, that you can get more spin using the trailing edge. For me a similar principle applies to heavy looping against chop. To lift heavy chop I try to hit the ball very fine nearer the leading edge. If I use the trailing edge the ball goes straight down. When counter-looping I contact more towards the centre and thicker. |
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| Author: | JimWeiland [ 08 Jun 2012, 15:00 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
I have been reading this thread with interest. My findings in connection with imparting spin on the ball have been the same as others. Allow me to throw out one more possibility, which I am not sure is correct by the laws of physics, so, you guys that know physics better than I do, correct me if this idea is ludicrous...but could this leading edge/trailing edge thing have anything to do with the amount of mass coming into the ball? On an underspin FH pendulum serve, for example, if you cut under the ball at the south pole area, or slightly forward of it it, and hit it with the leading 30% or so of the blade, you have most of the mass of the bat still coming into the ball, which means more power and drive into the ball. If you catch the ball with the last 30% of the bat or so, most of the incoming mass of the blade has already passed by the ball, and what you have left is the mass of the blade "pulling" rather than "driving into" the ball. Could this make a difference? Now, I understand that such a service stroke is almost completely "brush" as opposed to "hit". But does that then cause this dynamic to be even more significant? I'd be interested in what you guys think about this. Another dynamic which I think is significant has already been mentioned: for some serves, if you are hitting the ball with the trailing edge, you have already passed the "maximum power" part of the stroke (especially if the serve is very "snap of the wrist dependent"), and it will show in the amount of spin imparted (or not imparted). On the other hand, hitting the ball with the leading edge might be at just the beginning of the "maximum power" stroke==again, especially if the serve is very "wrist dependent". OK, my two cents worth. If I'm full of meadow muffins, let me know.
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| Author: | Der_Echte [ 08 Jun 2012, 15:57 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Glad to see you chime in Jim. These kind of threads provoke thoughts (and other scheize as well!) and are great. Creating spin is all about acelleration and timing of the bat to make a high speed right before and during impact and as you said, one must strike under the ball or even a tad forward of "bottom" to get max spin and still keep it short. The only reason I can see in hte whole "leading Edge" thing is that some people may have better timing striking the ball with their max speed when the blade and ball meet near the edge. Myself, I tend to hit more balls near the leading edge, way too close for my comfort and safety. Personally, I do not buy the "Mass" explaination, as I am convinced spin is all about acelleration before and through impact, timing, proper impact point on ball, and bat speed at impact. That is only what Der_Echte believes and I cannot prove anything either way, nor will I discourage anyone from voicing their view. I just don't believe mass is a factor on serve in TT, but maybe in baseball hitting. I am interested in discussing this and anything that brings about world peace or chaos. When I look at my bat after serving a couple dozen balls in practice, I see marks within a 5 cm wide swath from front leading edge to trailing edge, with many more towards the front. I wish I can get my timing to be a little more away from the edge. Striking the ball consistantly within 1/2 cm of the leading edge is too close to avoid error. |
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| Author: | hookshot [ 08 Jun 2012, 16:18 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Heavy Underspin Serves? |
Der, you actually check the marks like I do. I would like to see someone check after countering 20 of my loops. If you can make a 3 inch group, you are flat amazing. If you can make a one inch group, I will quit table tennis.
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