OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 30 May 2017, 14:58


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2014, 20:01 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 23 Apr 2013, 01:41
Posts: 98
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 3 times
Not sure if this is covered elsewhere... but what I mean is the way that pros (and most good players) serve by standing to the side of the table with the left knee under the side of the table (for a right hander).

I've been trying this a bit recently but the body mechanics seem all wrong, presumably because I'm just not used to it.

So here is my limited experience, which I would like people to expand on :-)
Advantages (if you can do it well)...
1) With the no hidden serve rule, this still offers some disguise as the bat can be (partially) hidden right up until contact with the ball.
2) The ball can be (and is) thrown towards the server somewhat without increasing its distance from the baseline.
Disadvantages (maybe)...
1) You have to move and rotate (avoiding the corner of the table) to be ready for the 3rd ball.

Thanks :-)


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: 10 Jan 2014, 23:31 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 2012, 22:24
Posts: 355
Location: Lincoln, NE (USA)
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 25 times
I serve from the back corner. Another benefit of it that you didn't mention is that it creates good angles for putting pressure on your opponent.

I'm a lefty and my bread & butter point is to put a pendulum serve wide to my opponents forehand. Generally players really have to reach to get there. Then if they do, a simple block or counterdrive in open court leads to a lot of winners. After this you will see players cheating towards the middle more in service return where I can serve down the line to their backhand and I'll take that any day.

If you've ever seen He Zhi Wen play, this is his gameplan.

More than anything though, I think the biggest advantage from serving from your backhand corner is that your 3rd ball attack goes to your forehand.

_________________
Stiga Clipper Classic
FH - TSP Spectol Red 2.0
BH - Dawei 388D-a 1.5


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2014, 00:58 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 23 Apr 2013, 01:41
Posts: 98
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 3 times
Serving from the backhand corner is fairly standard but I'm meaning with the body parallel to the side of the table rather than the baseline. The left elbow (for a right hander) can be over the table.
Look at Part 7 Penholder serve here.
http://stigatabletennis.com/en/drill-yo ... onal-team/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2014, 05:23 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 2012, 22:24
Posts: 355
Location: Lincoln, NE (USA)
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Spartan62 wrote:
Serving from the backhand corner is fairly standard but I'm meaning with the body parallel to the side of the table rather than the baseline. The left elbow (for a right hander) can be over the table.
Look at Part 7 Penholder serve here.
http://stigatabletennis.com/en/drill-yo ... onal-team/


Ah i see what you mean. Sorry I misunderstood your point.

Yes I've noticed they do that as well. Honestly I've toyed with it and did not like it. I don't personally see the benefit of being so incredibly close to the table (many of them with their leg under the table).

I feel like I can get the same advantages as far as disguise by standing ever so slightly off the baseline... Also gives me just a little more room in case I have a random bad toss since it has to stay behind the table.

_________________
Stiga Clipper Classic
FH - TSP Spectol Red 2.0
BH - Dawei 388D-a 1.5


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 00:41 
Offline
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 13:38
Posts: 1658
Location: Washington DC
Has thanked: 370 times
Been thanked: 291 times
Blade: Defplay Senso
FH: Xiom Ω IV Asia Max
BH: Dornenglanz OX
This is a great topic. I noticed this early on when watching Fabian Akerstrom's videos. He's veruy much to the side of the table. He manages to cover a lot of ground once the serve is launched quickly managers to move to the middle of the left half of the table (he's a righty). From there he further covers a lot of ground with his forehand reach. I imagine he's expecting certain angles based on placement and spin of his serve..

If anyone can comment as to the advantages of being to the side of the table, that would be great. Too many pros do it for it to be a coincidence. This has got to be a coached strategy...

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!"Comprehensive Thin Inverted Rubbers DBRating: 1615
Second Setup: Defplay Reflectoid 1.5mm/DefenderS 1.7mm ⇝ DefenderS 1.9mm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 05:17 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2467
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 220 times
Blade: Nexy Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
Brett Clarke is doing a lot of good videos about serving and he has discussed this. Feel free to look for threads about serving in the video section and pose this question directly to him.

It's basically a way of giving the body more room to rotate to generate more power and spin on the serve while remaining stable. Most service speed comes from the wrist but well timed body turns add valuable power as well. Shoulder and upper arm usage is unstable and not recommended.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 05:25 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
Spartan62 wrote:
Serving from the backhand corner is fairly standard but I'm meaning with the body parallel to the side of the table rather than the baseline. The left elbow (for a right hander) can be over the table.
Look at Part 7 Penholder serve here.
http://stigatabletennis.com/en/drill-yo ... onal-team/


I think you got the gist of it right in the OP.

Couple things worth noting is that such advantages are often small. They can provide an edge in some ways but much lower priority than getting the basic spins right. For example two of the best non-chinese players Samsonov and Ovtcharov use rather different positions. Also, high level players are not immune from doing something just because people better than them did it.

Another treat from that video is the axial serve demonstrated at the end. I've mentioned before this is one of the truly subtle and technically tricky services: viewtopic.php?p=285266#p285266. But observe that stabby serve motion (for deception) is pretty awkward from the FH position; it's much easier learned with BH regardless of grip. As another illustration of priorities, from the same thread Brett advised (I think in one of the videos) against the side motion for reverse pendulum. While this is true to get the basic backspin right first, one of the advantages of the reverse is possibility for mixing in axial.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 06:49 
Offline
Smack Attack!
Smack Attack!
User avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 15:39
Posts: 3486
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 50 times
It's good if you are young, trained, fit and fast, so that rules me out of standing too far over

_________________
Blade Ulmo Duality| FH Tibhar mx-p Black, Dawei 388D-1 red OX
NZ table tennis selector, ask a question
My Blog here..How table tennis objects are made
Table Tennis abbreviations, and acronyms


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 07:29 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
-----posted in wrong thread----------


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 08:21 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2467
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 220 times
Blade: Nexy Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
rodderz wrote:
It's good if you are young, trained, fit and fast, so that rules me out of standing too far over


Actually, this is not about standing over on the forehand side, but about standing side on to the table. For example, you see William Henzell stand side on when doing his pendulum and tomahawk serves even though he does the latter from the middle of the table. It's because you can turn into the ball with forward momentum more easily from this position. It's the same reason why Ovtcharov does is backhand serve side on to the table. People who are looking for more control on their serves usually start out facing the table and get more side on as they improve.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 09:29 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
> > It's because you can turn into the ball with forward momentum more easily from this position.

Technically pros almost turn their back to the table for the concealment mentioned in OP. A good enough stroke as they would have isn't necessarily mechanically demanding on specific stance, as exemplified by Video 7 above. Put another way, if there were a similar edge to serving square on they'd all do it, too. If this were truly a concern the advantages would be more manifest in normal play and players would always turn their feet when possible yet it's only done for occasional power shots.

Ovtcharov himself stands square for the tomahawk, as does Kenji (and yet Henzell supposedly doesn't, just as many BH servers don't side-stand). Perhaps he just started practicing FH/BH as mirror of each other.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 10:48 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 299
Location: Russia
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times
http://youtu.be/9GTzRZBxfbg

Gerell is the model server to learn the twisted serve from.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 16:22 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2467
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 220 times
Blade: Nexy Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
agenthex wrote:
> > It's because you can turn into the ball with forward momentum more easily from this position.

Technically pros almost turn their back to the table for the concealment mentioned in OP. A good enough stroke as they would have isn't necessarily mechanically demanding on specific stance, as exemplified by Video 7 above. Put another way, if there were a similar edge to serving square on they'd all do it, too. If this were truly a concern the advantages would be more manifest in normal play and players would always turn their feet when possible yet it's only done for occasional power shots.

Ovtcharov himself stands square for the tomahawk, as does Kenji (and yet Henzell supposedly doesn't, just as many BH servers don't side-stand). Perhaps he just started practicing FH/BH as mirror of each other.


Yes, but the post wasn't about turning their back to the table but about being side on, which is not quite the same thing. Maybe OP had in mind being side on with left leg in front and right leg way back, but being side on with left leg in front is common for most serves, and even some backhand servers like Ovtcharov have the right leg in front.

In general, being side on allows you to swing more in the direction of travel on the ball. If the OP is distinguishing between the stances of say Timo Boll, Vladimir Samsonov and Ma Long, you do have a point, though neither Boll nor Samsonov is particularly notorious for hiding their serves. It's much harder to serve strongly to different parts of the table standing square whether you can hide the ball better square or not. Being side on allows you to add weight transfer into the serving motion.

Kenta stands square for the tomahawk partly because he can't threaten a backhand tomahawk otherwise. Ovtcharov almost always keeps his tomahawk serve short to the middle of the table with side-backspin so he stands square to make it easier to control. Henzell almost always goes cross court, so he can turn into the serve with more confidence.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 16:41 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
> Maybe OP had in mind being side on with left leg in front and right leg way back,

I think that was implied:

> but what I mean is the way that pros (and most good players) serve by standing to the side of the table with the left knee under the side of the table (for a right hander).

That "pro" stance tends to start w/ body naturally turned toward right to cover up and only rotate to side as the serve is "revealed". The action happening hidden by your body is sufficient that I've had average club players who aren't used to it comment they first thought I was serving literally behind my back.

I'm not saying you're wrong about somewhat improved mechanical advantage against square, though you get most of it well short of 90deg (even "stepping around" for max power is maybe like 45deg). I'm just commenting on how a plurality of "pros" do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 00:20 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 5380
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 626 times
The way I see it, in the Stiga videos (the one at the top) they're standing with their backs to the table, right leg stretched out behind. The waist is twisted to the left so the upper body is facing less away from the table than is the lower body. I first saw this stance when facing hidden serves for the first time. The ball just pops out from behind the left forearm or elbow and you don't get to see the contact point. It could have been a pendulum or a reverse pendulum, and it would be hard to tell the difference. Some players were better hiders than others.

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: