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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 23:49 
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Lightzy wrote:
upsidedowncarl wrote:
Lightzy wrote:
Sundays I do serve practice somewhere between an hour or two :)
Nothing like a sunday morning!

Practice many aspects of pendulum serve. Especially doing rapid variation of length and then of placement for getting best control.




[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W6uof1fwb0[/youtube]
(how do you embed videos in this lovely forum? :)


It is interesting, it looks like the server is standing to the side of the table on most of these which is fine. But it also looks like the tossing hand and therefore, the ball, start over the table before the toss, so, not behind the end line. So, it looks as though the toss may be against the rules.
But on the ones with the higher angle, it also looks like the server is further down the side of the table and that the contact looks as though it is occurring over the table.

However, since all we can really see for sure is the server’s back, it is hard to say anything for sure.

The kid with the down coat seems more educational to watch....or, at least, more fun.


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I'm not sure you can miss that the toss and contact are outside the table when with the serves you clearly see the gap behind the edge of the table as I do the backswing :) All the serves are, of course, legal :)
The angle is for the sake of privacy.
That said, I agree completely that the little kid in the coat is much more fun to watch!


You start leaned forward, over the table. It looks like your hand is over the table when you are motionless. Then your body moves back and your arm moves back.

So, from this angle, since you can’t see the hand but have to interpret it from the arm, the still point, before the arm is moving, the hand looks like it is probably over the table.

The still point before the hand moves, the hand has to be behind the line. It looks like your hand is over the table before your body starts moving back.

I could be wrong. Because of the angle, all of what I am talking about is hidden.

And guys like Ma Long do this:

Image

Where the forearm is actually resting on the table and the hand (with the ball) is clearly just behind the end line.

In the serves with the bigger angle right to the corner, you never move far enough back for us to see the end line at all.

I understand privacy. Privacy has its place.

But you can video you serving where your torso is in the video and your head is not. In some of LordCope’s videos, he is partially cutting his head off without even meaning to. The real action is below the shoulders.

I can see the spin is pretty decent. But with this angle you are hiding everything.

Seeing from the other side from below the shoulders would keep your privacy and show the actual serve technique.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 00:10 
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Based on the rules, the ball has to be still and behind the end line before the motion. On your toss, with the angle of filming, it looks like the ball is over the table until you start your motion. Then, during your motion, most of the time, the arm moves back.

But if you look closely at the one at 18 seconds, it looks like the ball is over the table the whole time it is in your hand. After it leaves your hand, it may or may not go behind the end line. But if you freeze at 19 seconds, the ball is out of your hand, your hand is facing side and down which makes it look like the ball was probably not resting in your palm with the palm facing up at the start. And your hand is still above the table. Clearly not behind it. And during that serve, your body pulls forward to contact the ball, so, with that one, it looks like you may contact the ball over the table too.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 00:13 
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Again, the easy fix that keeps your identity private is to film from the shoulders down so people can see your racket, your torso, your toss hand and the table. But not your face.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 01:07 
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By the way, last detail, I get you are messing around and having fun. So, it really doesn’t matter if where your hand starts causes the toss to be against the rules. In the end, the spin is good. But it would be nice to see what the racket is doing.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 05:46 
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upsidedowncarl wrote:
By the way, last detail, I get you are messing around and having fun. So, it really doesn’t matter if where your hand starts causes the toss to be against the rules. In the end, the spin is good. But it would be nice to see what the racket is doing.


The serves are all legal, or I wouldn't be practicing em. It seems very difficult for people on these forums to assume basic competence of others. I wonder what in the history/culture of them caused this.


But yes, for the video it's just for the fun of it. It's not meant as any kind of instruction to anyone. More something amusing which I actually made for my wife cuz she phoned to ask what I'm doing right now (as there are chores to be taken care of).

And anyway, the technique is exactly the same as shown in dozens of instructional youtubes already, all of which invested in production quality so there's nothing I'd care to add. The only thing perhaps is suggesting methods of drilling to get the best out of the serve. Like serving from very short to off-the-table long in cycles without changing anything the eye can spot. The exercise really is just in hitting the ball at different times during the swing to get different ratios of back/side spin so it's harder to spot and trying to make sure the first bounce is more or less at the same place on my side of the table regardless of how long I want the ball (except for the actual long fast serves where it's a totally different motion), meaning that it's the ratio of back/side spin that controls the length and not the power of the swing or first ball bounce location.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 06:41 
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Lightzy wrote:
Quote:
The serves are all legal, or I wouldn't be practicing em. It seems very difficult for people on these forums to assume basic competence of others. I wonder what in the history/culture of them caused this.

But yes, for the video it's just for the fun of it. It's not meant as any kind of instruction to anyone. More something amusing which I actually made for my wife cuz she phoned to ask what I'm doing right now (as there are chores to be taken care of).


If you take a video for such a reason, then to prove your point you should have no problem taking another one as USC has suggested.

Lightzy wrote:
Quote:
And anyway, the technique is exactly the same as shown in dozens of instructional youtubes already, all of which invested in production quality so there's nothing I'd care to add. The only thing perhaps is suggesting methods of drilling to get the best out of the serve. Like serving from very short to off-the-table long in cycles without changing anything the eye can spot. The exercise really is just in hitting the ball at different times during the swing to get different ratios of back/side spin so it's harder to spot and trying to make sure the first bounce is more or less at the same place on my side of the table regardless of how long I want the ball (except for the actual long fast serves where it's a totally different motion), meaning that it's the ratio of back/side spin that controls the length and not the power of the swing or first ball bounce location.


So do the video already. You already said your original video was essentially made for fun. So why now get into all this technical sounding stuff? As the old saying goes "A picture is worth a thousand words".

Just be aware that there are a few here that are familiar with your 'posting style' elsewhere. The forum owner here is a moderator there after all.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 07:32 
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Yep. In truth it doesn’t matter. But, here:

Image

Image

Image

Those images occurs between 18-19 second mark on the video. The arm is clearly moving up during the ball toss. And it very much looks like the arm is over the surface of the table, not behind the end line.

But, again, since you are messing around and having fun, it doesn’t really matter. Even though I would enjoy seeing an angle where we could see the racket and contact.

I only present these photos because they show pretty clearly what I was looking at that made me question whether the ball and the toss start over the table or behind the end line.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 08:53 
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Lightzy wrote:
The serves are all legal, or I wouldn't be practicing em. It seems very difficult for people on these forums to assume basic competence of others. I wonder what in the history/culture of them caused this.


When you are on forums long enough, you will have seen many, many contributors presenting themselves as some kind of expert, or as confrontational, or aggressive. And when you finally see them play it often makes you wonder.

You may very well be different. I have no doubt of your skills on the piano: those afford a pleasurable auditory experience. But when someone presents himself as confidently and (sometimes) as aggressively or arrogantly, while lacking certain social graces (“stupid forum”), it makes one want to see the actual level of the player with the abrasive online persona. Would he present in as self important and disrespectful a manner if he was being open with fellow forumers about who he is and how he plays.

In my experience on table tennis forums, even when someone’s skill level is quite high, when the people on the forum have seen those skills, the forum member actually behaves much more cordially to all others regardless of skill level.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 09:51 
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Rofl,

Obviously if people speak cordially they will likely be met with cordiality. Without the level of expertise being a factor.
It is when people of uncertain competence assume basic incompetence another's behalf and try to bully him into compromising his privacy for their selfish satisfaction, is when they should be warned by the mods forthwith, and he is of course under no obligation of cordiality in return.

This mode of behavior has to be a bannable offense. Nobody on a forum should even be CONSIDERING slandering someone for not fulfilling their demands that are contrary to one's right to privacy on the forum.
It is a kind of disease hereabouts and I do hope the mods will be more active regarding it.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 10:56 
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Lightzy wrote:
Quote:
Rofl,

Obviously if people speak cordially they will likely be met with cordiality. Without the level of expertise being a factor.
It is when people of uncertain competence assume basic incompetence another's behalf and try to bully him into compromising his privacy for their selfish satisfaction, is when they should be warned by the mods forthwith, and he is of course under no obligation of cordiality in return.

This mode of behavior has to be a bannable offense. Nobody on a forum should even be CONSIDERING slandering someone for not fulfilling their demands that are contrary to one's right to privacy on the forum.
It is a kind of disease hereabouts and I do hope the mods will be more active regarding it.


So instead of really rebutting USC's pretty valid concern that you are serving over the table from photos extracted from your video, or posting video that shows you clearly serving legally, one goes all third persony and ad hominem while effectively requesting the might of the moderator to fall on those being a little critical of one.

Possible alternative responses to USC's crtiticism:
"No I think I was serving OK. I'll post video of the same serves that will show this later today."
"Yeah it looks like I was really goofing around. You are right - those serves are over the table."
"USC, I was goofing around. However I think you were a little strong on the criticism."

This last one owns (at least a little) how you reacted to what USC said, as against what you wrote that basically says that USC made you react that way and you want the moderators stop him making you react that way.

I see no slander in what USC has said (but then again IANAL), and USC suggested that your new video not include your face so that your privacy would be respected.

One poster sees a disease that no other posters have seen. Interesting.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 11:44 
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Retriever wrote:
So instead of really rebutting USC's pretty valid concern that you are serving over the table from photos extracted from your video, or posting video that shows you clearly serving legally, one goes all third persony and ad hominem while effectively requesting the might of the moderator to fall on those being a little critical of one.

One poster sees a disease that no other posters have seen. Interesting.


First of all, your ire is misplaced, because your context is incorrect. I was not responding to Carl ABOUT Carl but rather about some other people, and he, I believe, knows this. Carl respects the right of privacy, he does not demand in a bullying way. He asks once, and if the answer is no, he continues with his life. He perhaps remains skeptical, which is his right, but that is where it ends.

That said, the ball is not over the table and so there is no illegality. Perhaps you simply misinterpret the rules of service. The ENTIRE DAMN ARM can be over the table so long as the toss is vertical and behind the end line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06btFlP48E&t=5s - 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhaAx6nwtnw - 2:17.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zN5GVSIMzI&t=552s - 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VA36jKzJY - 0:30

Unless the rules have changed, feel free to apologize. If they have, I freely admit error, apologize, and promise to make you a personally dedicated video where you can see the toss and motion from start to finish.


It is your problem, one inherent in these forums apparently. Notice that throughout, I didn't say to you "you may not question anything I say or do, for where are your credentials, newb? show me that you're at least 2500 strength", and if the tone of my post is not too nice it is because I'm entirely *disgusted* by this mindset.
I think it is so because moderators have not been consistent about watching over posters right to have no frivolous demands made of them which may construe a violation of privacy.


Last edited by Lightzy on 17 Jan 2018, 13:12, edited 10 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 12:18 
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LordCope wrote:
Welcome to the "5 Minutes Daily" Service Practice Challenge for February.

I will run this challenge every month, and attempt to keep to it each month. The challenge is to spend (at least) 5 minutes every day, working on a focussed aspect of your serve, every day of the month. Here's how it works:

- Make a somewhat detailed post describing your practice every day during the month.
- No back-dating or pre-dating posts or practice sessions.
- On the last day of the month, if you completed the challenge, post about it, preferably in red text or something so I can notice it. I will be lobbying the mods for a special award / title that can be given to those who complete the challenge.

In your post, please:

- Detail what you did for at least five minutes of practice - with a table? on the floor? on the bed? at the club? with one ball or many? shadow swings?
- Video footage would be *awesome* - I'm hoping this will get me into the habit of recording myself again

Enjoy and practice hard!


I haven't visited this thread for a while and got confused by the last few posts. Just for reference, this was LordCope's opening post to his thread.

Unless I'm missing something, a forum member has posted a video as per LordCope's request, others have asked for a follow up video from a different angle for a better view of the technique used and this has been declined.

People have the right to ask for clarification and the right to decline. As a long time forum member here I see no reason for moderation required unless those concerned are acting in a way to deliberately derail this topic. Lightzy, please get over it or move on to a forum where you feel you won't suffer what you preceive to be inherent problems. The topic is what is important. On that point, Lightzy, thanks for posting your video of how you practise. My only question on your video would be to ask do you ever practise your positioning to play your next shot after you serve. I often watch people standing and watching to see what happens to the ball when practising serving and very rarely see players serve and practice recovery to a ready position to counter the expected return. Every serve should be done with a view to achieving a purpose and whilst you can't control everything an opponent does you can serve and prepare based on what you hope to achieve with your serve.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 13:07 
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Debater wrote:
On that point, Lightzy, thanks for posting your video of how you practise. My only question on your video would be to ask do you ever practise your positioning to play your next shot after you serve. I often watch people standing and watching to see what happens to the ball when practising serving and very rarely see players serve and practice recovery to a ready position to counter the expected return. Every serve should be done with a view to achieving a purpose and whilst you can't control everything an opponent does you can serve and prepare based on what you hope to achieve with your serve.


You're welcome and I hope it was a bit enjoyable.

In response your question, yes, but that sunday I wanted only to practice placement, distance and spin using nothing but the backswing (mainly body rotation) and wrist. Part of why I stand sideways to the table is to conceal most of the backswing and that wrist flex. I reason that if the ball lands at the same place on my side of the table always then the opponent will have a harder time reacting ideally because it will be more difficult to tell the spin and placement on his side.

BTW in context of an entire game, it is not necessarily a bad tactic to stay in place after this serve. If they usually push, they may overconfidently push the ball with their forehand towards my forehand (where I'm not standing), and it is very likely the ball will go into the net because then it runs into the full cork/backspin, which I've been informed I impart a good measure of (thanks Carl). This is a tactical choice which like anything you do promises reward and carries risk.
Conversely, if they prefer flicking and especially moving to the forehand and flicking short serves I will never do this serve at all.


Last edited by Lightzy on 17 Jan 2018, 13:24, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 13:08 
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Just simply as concerns the portion of the rule in question:

“2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line....”

If the ball is in your hand, and your hand is over the table at any point during the toss or in the pause before the arm starts moving for the toss, then the ball is over the table. And the rule explicitly states the ball has to be behind the end line: higher than the playing surface and further back than the end line.

So if you dropped the ball and it bounced on the table, it would not have been behind the end line.

But, again, this probably isn’t how you’d be serving in a match. So, it is not a real issue.

That rule is also why I showed the photo of how Ma Long and some other top players rest their forearm on the table with the forearm angled back and the hand, and ball, barely, but clearly, behind the end line. That is how some players ensure that the ball was always behind the end line before they start their toss.

Anyway, the more important issue: will the prodigy in the blue down coat be a musician, a table tennis player, or both. :)


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Last edited by upsidedowncarl on 17 Jan 2018, 13:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 13:15 
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So I assure you that the ball is never over the table. I hope that is enough :)
If still not convinced, look at where I turn my head when I look at the ball. It is obviously towards the right, to an extent where it should be very evident that the ball is behind the table.

As for your question, I'm currently training the prodigy to be a good shoe fetcher and returner of toys to baskets. Where he may develop from there is anyone's guess :P


Last edited by Lightzy on 17 Jan 2018, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.

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