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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2014, 18:00 
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Hmmm. I dont know about this.

http://tabletennista.com/2014/7/the-two ... ign=fb-tta

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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2014, 18:12 
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Yeah I'm not a fan either. There is a lot of skill and training required to learn how to do sophisticated serves. There is also skill involved in reading those serves. Using 2 coloured balls would just dub-down the game IMO.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 03:07 
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I like the idea. We experimented with balls like this in our club. Not only does this make it easier for spectators to see the spin, it also negates much of the advantage in hiding the ball when serving (which while illegal is still done by most top players) and makes it much easier to read spin throughout the ralley. Since one of the main things that ends points is the misreading of spin, this should extend points. With a ball like this it solves the whole hiding the ball service enforcement issue.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 06:43 
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carbonman wrote:
Yeah I'm not a fan either. There is a lot of skill and training required to learn how to do sophisticated serves. There is also skill involved in reading those serves. Using 2 coloured balls would just dub-down the game IMO.


From this standpoint think of the lost old skills it took to read arm hidden serves and finger snap serves directly out of the hand and rackets with two totally different sorts of rubbers but both sides the same color.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 07:24 
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fleetwood999 wrote:
carbonman wrote:
Yeah I'm not a fan either. There is a lot of skill and training required to learn how to do sophisticated serves. There is also skill involved in reading those serves. Using 2 coloured balls would just dub-down the game IMO.


From this standpoint think of the lost old skills it took to read arm hidden serves and finger snap serves directly out of the hand and rackets with two totally different sorts of rubbers but both sides the same color.

The difference is that in the case of single colour serves were pretty much unreadable. (Check out Klampar v Cai to see a world class player clueless against a single colour bat). You could sometimes get some idea from the flight but that was about it. Also, the level of skill required to produce variation with a single colour bat was minimal.

The other serves you mention impede ones ability to return them to a degree.

The current service laws ensure nothing is hidden as well as adequate time to return them. The receiver really has little to complain about. There is a fair battle between skilful serving and skilful receiving.

The other thing is that a two colour ball could put another nail in the coffin of defenders if it allowed their floats to be easily picked.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 07:54 
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You're probably right. My friend Jon Bosika told me of coaching Lupulesku (Olympic Silver, Doubles) against Zoran Kalinic in the hidden serve legal days.
He said Lupi just turned to him and shook his head after a few minutes, he couldn't get any read at all of the serves since Kalinic's rather large (6'6" ish) frame, hand and arm covered the contact completely. If a world class player can't get a clue there is something wrong. Yet Kalinic, of course had to have worked very hard to get those penhold serves to the point where no other body and motion clues gave them away. Waldner could evidently read them or guess them.


Zoran Kalinic vs Waldner

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 08:25 
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Yes the geniuses always find a way. Stipancic, another genius, was brilliant (at least compared to most others at the time) at reading spin when playing against single colour bats. Apparently when playing doubles with Surbek he used to call out to him what spin was on the ball!


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 10:33 
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carbonman wrote:
The current service laws ensure nothing is hidden as well as adequate time to return them. The receiver really has little to complain about. There is a fair battle between skilful serving and skilful receiving.


This has been far from my experience. Most higher level tournament players regularly hide the ball with their shoulder or body. Especially on important points, where you will see many players revert to blatantly hiding the ball with the arm. During many tournament matches, players play the game of how much can I get away with, how strict is this umpire going to be, and how much are they paying attention. Service rule enforcement is currently very difficult and far from uniform.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2014, 13:53 
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Yes true. I should have said the laws allow for nothing to be hidden.


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PostPosted: 21 Jul 2014, 07:33 
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Agree about the defender's float ball being given away.

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PostPosted: 22 Jul 2014, 02:46 
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Kalinic vs. Waldner video. Interesting. How many European Chinese-penholders were there? Very short rallies, it was Kalinic who was having trouble returning serves - the number of outright winners by Waldner on the serve was amazing. Don't see too much of this nowadays (I've been spending time on the ITTF website watching matches) but it was quite common back then. You see one or two flubbed returns here and there but nothing like this. Why?? 40mm ball, new serve rules. I prefer watching the longer rallies you get these days, myself.

While I'm not pro or against the two colored ball I think it'd be interesting if they used such a ball for one or two tournaments. It'd make for some interesting footage, and I think it'd be very useful for the spectator, especially when they do slow-motion replays. I wonder if it'd be possible to somehow mark the ball so that the markings would be visible to the camera (and thus the tele-spectators) but not the players.

What else can you use the two toned ball (which, by the way, can already be bought, or you can make one yourself with no problems) for? Well, since radar guns came out some of my RC flying friends have been using them to see how fast their low passes are, for bragging rights - there are numerous videos on YouTube for fastest this or fastest that. Well, how about "highest RPM loop" videos??

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2014, 05:53 
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- let both single colour and two colored ball categories be.
-with two coloured ball... no need to ban nonfrictioned longpimples like Dr.N, Hallmark, etc. let them be..
- // // // // ...no need any aspect ratio rule,let them be all kinds of lp's...also short&medium pimples... only the surface has to be homogene...


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2014, 07:28 
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carbonman wrote:
Yeah I'm not a fan either. There is a lot of skill and training required to learn how to do sophisticated serves. There is also skill involved in reading those serves. Using 2 coloured balls would just dub-down the game IMO.


The point of the ball change is really less about learned skills over time and more about making the sport more popular and a better product for television viewing. The rule isn't for us hardcore players who already know the role spin plays in the game. It's for the casual fan who has no idea the intricacies of spin in the game. Particularly service.

From this outlook, I think it makes sense and would help the sport from a television viewing prospective.

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PostPosted: 25 Dec 2014, 11:20 
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Looking back at this thread to carbonman's statement.

Can you call out what spin is on the ball in doubles?

I never looked for a rule, but I did it during a tournament and was told I couldn't. Is there such a rule or was I duped.

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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2014, 08:48 
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fleetwood999 wrote:
You're probably right. My friend Jon Bosika told me of coaching Lupulesku (Olympic Silver, Doubles) against Zoran Kalinic in the hidden serve legal days.
He said Lupi just turned to him and shook his head after a few minutes, he couldn't get any read at all of the serves since Kalinic's rather large (6'6" ish) frame, hand and arm covered the contact completely. If a world class player can't get a clue there is something wrong. Yet Kalinic, of course had to have worked very hard to get those penhold serves to the point where no other body and motion clues gave them away. Waldner could evidently read them or guess them.


Zoran Kalinic vs Waldner


I remember this one though. It took Waldner awhile to figure it out. Earlier in the same tournament, I think a day or two before, (this was the world teams), he had lost to Kalinic. The match you posted had a bit of a revenge feel to it. It shows Waldner at his best. A guy at my club who has played some of these guys (Viktor Subonj) told me that Kalinic had the best serve he has ever seen.

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