OOAK Table Tennis Forum :: Plastic ball transition for modern defender

Hi All.
I am a 2300-2400 modern defender who just started the transition to the plastic ball.
I am using Joola *** 40+ ball since it is the official ball for USA Joola Teams tournament that
I will attend in 6 weeks. I am using Butterfly's Grubba PRO blade with red Tennergy 64 FX 1.9 and
black TSP CURL P-1R 1.4~1.7. After first practice with it I am completely depressed.

1. My backhand chops that are usually just loaded with ton of spin are coming back with insignificant spin.
My partner has absolutely no problem to loop them again where with celluloid ball he will struggle and
will be unable to loop more than 3-4 loops. Part of the problem I think is that his loops are not generating enough
spin and the pips don't have enough spin to work with. The only bright spot is that the chop is returned very fast,
the ball is flying back almost as a bullet, much faster than I used to.
2. My forehand chops were even worse. I used to create a lot of spin with my inverted side out of any ball (push,loop,serve),
not anymore! The ball is coming with some spin, but it is easily disregarded by my partner who suddenly can easily control
his loops and was completely dominating during the rally.
3. Attacking was easier to do. My forehand looping and counter-looping instantly improved, while
pips backhand smashes and even pip-looping was easy to control.

Overall, a very bad experience. I will have to change my equipment in hope to find something that can bring the spin back.
Next practice I will have a provincial Hurricane to try. Will see how it will go.

I have been playing with Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls lately (not the same as the Chinese made Nittaku SHA 40+). That ball proves that it is possible to make a seamed plastic ball that is durable and ...

Everyone at out club likes the plastic ball better.

Baal wrote:

Sabine Winter (World Rank 101) from Germany made a quite different experience at the recent European Championship according to her report (in German): http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/blog/5209/sabines-blog--in-lissabon-eine-gute-woche-gehabt where Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls was used.

She managed to break 4 Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls just within 15 minutes when warming up.

This seems to be the highest breakage rate reported ever.

Note that Nittaku had enough time to develop and test their product.

P.S. I think the readers deserve to know what top players report on durability, even if that contradicts Baal's reports.

For us, we all feel like we've moved up a level and that we are better players than we were with the celluloid balls.

mts288 wrote:

For us, we all feel like we've moved up a level and that we are better players than we were with the celluloid balls.

Well, since we have a contradiction I suggest looking at facts one can easily check. In Germany plastic has essentially failed, since apart from 2 highest divisions where players also play internationally, the overwhelming majority of teams use celluloid. At least this is true for the 5 highest devisions. Easy to check at http://dttb.click-tt.de/.

I think that readers who have any question about who is objective can go back and read Smartguy's posts here (he also goes by Mastermind at MyTT) and learn if he has ever even once posted on a subject other than plastic balls and if he has ever had anything but total negativity to offer. You will find the answer is no and no,

I don't care what the Germans like or use.

Baal, you've said you didn't like the Double Fish. After using them for 3 weeks I can't find any fault with them. The bounce seems true and they don't break easily. Could you have used an earlier version and I got the new and improved one? I probably don't play at your level, but I think I would have noticed a problem.

Author:	nortongoblin [ 23 Oct 2014, 04:02 ]
Post subject:	Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Hi All. I am a 2300-2400 modern defender who just started the transition to the plastic ball. I am using Joola *** 40+ ball since it is the official ball for USA Joola Teams tournament that I will attend in 6 weeks. I am using Butterfly's Grubba PRO blade with red Tennergy 64 FX 1.9 and black TSP CURL P-1R 1.4~1.7. After first practice with it I am completely depressed. 1. My backhand chops that are usually just loaded with ton of spin are coming back with insignificant spin. My partner has absolutely no problem to loop them again where with celluloid ball he will struggle and will be unable to loop more than 3-4 loops. Part of the problem I think is that his loops are not generating enough spin and the pips don't have enough spin to work with. The only bright spot is that the chop is returned very fast, the ball is flying back almost as a bullet, much faster than I used to. 2. My forehand chops were even worse. I used to create a lot of spin with my inverted side out of any ball (push,loop,serve), not anymore! The ball is coming with some spin, but it is easily disregarded by my partner who suddenly can easily control his loops and was completely dominating during the rally. 3. Attacking was easier to do. My forehand looping and counter-looping instantly improved, while pips backhand smashes and even pip-looping was easy to control. Overall, a very bad experience. I will have to change my equipment in hope to find something that can bring the spin back. Next practice I will have a provincial Hurricane to try. Will see how it will go.

Author:	agenthex [ 23 Oct 2014, 06:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
The answer for this turned into a longer post which probably deserved its own thread here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26741&p=283866#p283866 In short, it might be a slight couple percent disadvantage for you against very powerful attackers, but less so against control players. Of course no one wants to be on the short end of the bargain esp when on the end of a high level loopdrive. However you can somewhat negate this by chopping with higher throw (imparting your own spin, not speed), just as they do in order to reap the benefits. edit: Pondering it a bit more, there will probably be a difference for different types of choppers. Rallies at less than very high attacking levels will probably be bit longer (the ones on TV won't, lol ITTF), so the safe stable chopper who outlasts opponent will be effected less than the variation guy (SP esp come to mind) who rely more on mistakes.

Author:	birding&table.tennis [ 25 Oct 2014, 02:58 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
nortongoblin wrote: Hi All. I am a 2300-2400 modern defender who just started the transition to the plastic ball. I am using Joola * 40+ ball since it is the official ball for USA Joola Teams tournament that I will attend in 6 weeks. I am using Butterfly's Grubba PRO blade with red Tennergy 64 FX 1.9 and black TSP CURL P-1R 1.4~1.7. After first practice with it I am completely depressed. 1. My backhand chops that are usually just loaded with ton of spin are coming back with insignificant spin. My partner has absolutely no problem to loop them again where with celluloid ball he will struggle and will be unable to loop more than 3-4 loops. Part of the problem I think is that his loops are not generating enough spin and the pips don't have enough spin to work with. The only bright spot is that the chop is returned very fast, the ball is flying back almost as a bullet, much faster than I used to. 2. My forehand chops were even worse. I used to create a lot of spin with my inverted side out of any ball (push,loop,serve), not anymore! The ball is coming with some spin, but it is easily disregarded by my partner who suddenly can easily control his loops and was completely dominating during the rally. 3. Attacking was easier to do. My forehand looping and counter-looping instantly improved, while pips backhand smashes and even pip-looping was easy to control. Overall, a very bad experience. I will have to change my equipment in hope to find something that can bring the spin back. Next practice I will have a provincial Hurricane to try. Will see how it will go. nortongoblin, My experience in chopping with the Joola * 40+ ball poly ball is rather different. I use a Butterfly Joo SaeHyuk blade, with Tenergy 64 on my forehand and TSP Curl P!R 1.4-1.7mm on my backhand. So, besides the blades, I think our setups aren't too different. On the forehand, I was recently practicing with a player that is presented rated between 2000 and 2100, but when he was younger his rating about 2300. He said that comparing the poly and celluloid balls, my heavy forehand chops have just slightly less spin. However, he found looping against my chops to be more difficult because the ball would no longer jump out toward him. He felt that it would take time to make this adjustment. On the backhand, I practiced with a 2000 rated player. This player has a very powerful (but erratic) and spinny forehand loop that is faster than the 2600-2700 level professional player that I practiced with in Korea last summer. He also said that the spin on my heavy backhand chops was only slightly less than before. He also said that my chops were more difficult for him because they take a lower trajectory with the poly ball, and the balls jump forward less. Interestingly, I compared Tenergy 64 with Tenergy 64fx (both at 1.9mm), both on Joo blades, with the poly ball. In contrast to this comparison with celluloid balls (see viewtopic.php?f=44&t=25482&start=15), the differences between these two rubbers was much less with the poly ball. I only practiced for about 10 minutes with the Tenergy 64fx and the poly ball, but the speed was only slightly less with Tenergy 64fx, and the ball never came close to bottoming out, as with the Nittaku 3-star celluloid ball. This behavior reminded me of Kees comment that the poly ball tends to penetrate the rubber less than with the celluloid ball. This makes me wonder whether in a relative sense the topsheet may have a greater impact than the sponge with the poly ball. Steven

Author:	Baal [ 25 Oct 2014, 22:33 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Every good player is depressed the first time they try these balls (and the Joola 40+ are really bad). The difference from celluloid is pretty shocking. Nobody at my club likes them (or balls like it) but people who have been using it for several weeks have certainly improved their play with them. SO all I can say is it gets better as you play with them more (some anyway), because your timing will improve and you will change your technique as needed with experience. Also, I have a faint hope that these seamless balls will get better at some point -- by which I mean that they will at least bounce more normally. The added size has effects on how the ball flies through the air and that will never go away, but is relatively easy to learn to cope with, much more so than crappy bounce. Caveat to this statement: I am not a defender. One good defender I know in my town is about 2400, a good friend of mine, but she has not spent much time with the new ball, since she mostly coaches, but to the extent that she has used them she hates them. The other is 2700 but doesn't really speak English, so I don't know what he thinks. I have been playing with Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls lately (not the same as the Chinese made Nittaku SHA 40+). That ball proves that it is possible to make a seamed plastic ball that is durable and with good playing properties. I think nearly everyone will be perfectly content with that ball. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to obtain at this moment.

Author:	Smartguy [ 26 Oct 2014, 01:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Baal wrote: I have been playing with Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls lately (not the same as the Chinese made Nittaku SHA 40+). That ball proves that it is possible to make a seamed plastic ball that is durable and ... Sabine Winter (World Rank 101) from Germany made a quite different experience at the recent European Championship according to her report (in German): http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/blog/5209/sabines-blog--in-lissabon-eine-gute-woche-gehabt where Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls was used. She managed to break 4 Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls just within 15 minutes when warming up. This seems to be the highest breakage rate reported ever. Note that Nittaku had enough time to develop and test their product. P.S. I think the readers deserve to know what top players report on durability, even if that contradicts Baal's reports.

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Author:	mts288 [ 26 Oct 2014, 01:57 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Everyone at out club likes the plastic ball better. The only balls we have are Joola and Double Fish. In 3 weeks of play we have only had 2 broken balls. Although it seems like we've given up a little spin, the control is much better. I have LP's on my backhand and am a spiny forehand looper. I don't mind trading a little spin for much better control. I think that because of the improved control the rallies last longer, which makes players feel that they're playing better and are enjoying the game more. The downside is that we still have 75 celluloid balls that nobody will play with.

Author:	Smartguy [ 26 Oct 2014, 02:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
mts288 wrote: Everyone at out club likes the plastic ball better. That's weird, because from the people I know it is like 1 out of 100 who like plastic balls. This one guy could not understand, why nobody in his club liked plastic, except him. Such a phenomenon.

Author:	mts288 [ 26 Oct 2014, 02:38 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
It could be that we like the plastic ball better because we are all mid level club players. The slightly slower/less spiny ball gives us more time to make better plays. For us, we all feel like we've moved up a level and that we are better players than we were with the celluloid balls. If we're all enjoying the game more, then the plastic ball is a better ball for us.

Author:	Baal [ 26 Oct 2014, 05:09 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Smartguy wrote: Baal wrote: I have been playing with Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls lately (not the same as the Chinese made Nittaku SHA 40+). That ball proves that it is possible to make a seamed plastic ball that is durable and ... Sabine Winter (World Rank 101) from Germany made a quite different experience at the recent European Championship according to her report (in German): http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/blog/5209/sabines-blog--in-lissabon-eine-gute-woche-gehabt where Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls was used. She managed to break 4 Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls just within 15 minutes when warming up. This seems to be the highest breakage rate reported ever. Note that Nittaku had enough time to develop and test their product. P.S. I think the readers deserve to know what top players report on durability, even if that contradicts Baal's reports. Well, I did break one today, after about 6 hrs of play on that ball. In contrast to other plastic balls, this one breaks like a celluloid (meaning it doesn't fracture completely, it gets a little crack and starts to sound funny and then you know). I think readers have a right to know that I gave two to players at my club who are former US team members, one of whom was ranked in the top 100 in the world for men and he hasn't broken one yet. This same guy was breaking Joola 40+ right and left. The Nittaku 40+ Premium ball in my experience has the durability you would expect for a celluloid ball. That is a good thing because they play so much better than all plastic balls that I am going to use each one for as long as I possibly can. (I gave some balls away when I thought it would be very easy to get more soon, but now I have slight regret). Whatever. I know what I am seeing from direct personal experience. I have nothing to gain by making stuff up. I don't own Nittaku stock. I prefer celluloid balls, as I have said many times (including what is implied in the comment that was just quoted), but they probably are going away. I think that readers who have any question about who is objective can go back and read Smartguy's posts here (he also goes by Mastermind at MyTT) and learn if he has ever even once posted on a subject other than plastic balls and if he has ever had anything but total negativity to offer. You will find the answer is no and no, just a bunch of flat knee-jerk reactions and the conviction that the plastic balls may eventually disappear if he complains enough. Among those posts you will find some pretty absurd stuff. He seems to have no other interest in table tennis. It is pretty strange. Smartguy, I am sure you will respond but understand this, in this message I am not talking to you, I am talking about you, and I will no longer engage. Anyway, I am getting a bit bored with the plastic ball subject. I have been writing about it too much myself.

Author:	Smartguy [ 26 Oct 2014, 05:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
mts288 wrote: For us, we all feel like we've moved up a level and that we are better players than we were with the celluloid balls. Well, since we have a contradiction I suggest looking at facts one can easily check. In Germany plastic has essentially failed, since apart from 2 highest divisions where players also play internationally, the overwhelming majority of teams use celluloid. At least this is true for the 5 highest devisions. Easy to check at http://dttb.click-tt.de/.

Author:	mts288 [ 26 Oct 2014, 05:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Baal, you've said you didn't like the Double Fish. After using them for 3 weeks I can't find any fault with them. The bounce seems true and they don't break easily. Could you have used an earlier version and I got the new and improved one? I probably don't play at your level, but I think I would have noticed a problem.

Author:	mts288 [ 26 Oct 2014, 05:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Smartguy wrote: mts288 wrote: For us, we all feel like we've moved up a level and that we are better players than we were with the celluloid balls. Well, since we have a contradiction I suggest looking at facts one can easily check. In Germany plastic has essentially failed, since apart from 2 highest divisions where players also play internationally, the overwhelming majority of teams use celluloid. At least this is true for the 5 highest devisions. Easy to check at http://dttb.click-tt.de/. I don't need your "facts", and there is no contradiction unless you're saying that I'm wrong and you think we really don't like the poly balls. I stated that we liked the poly ball. That's a fact. I don't care what the Germans like or use.

Author:	Smartguy [ 26 Oct 2014, 05:54 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
Baal wrote: I think that readers who have any question about who is objective can go back and read Smartguy's posts here (he also goes by Mastermind at MyTT) and learn if he has ever even once posted on a subject other than plastic balls and if he has ever had anything but total negativity to offer. You will find the answer is no and no, This is not true, but the trick is efficient though, since no one will actually go and check such allegations. As for "negativity" about plastic balls, I can not find anything positive on the scam and the products. My personal experience with plastic balls is negative. So? The obvious advantage of the internet forums is that the readers can read (and sometimes check) what others post and decide for themselves.

Author:	Smartguy [ 26 Oct 2014, 05:57 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
mts288 wrote: I don't care what the Germans like or use. This is your right, but we are talking about the Association with 600,000 club members and well developed league system, where virtually every active player plays in a team. So, what teams use is fairly representative.

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Author:	Baal [ 26 Oct 2014, 06:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: Plastic ball transition for modern defender
mts288 wrote: Baal, you've said you didn't like the Double Fish. After using them for 3 weeks I can't find any fault with them. The bounce seems true and they don't break easily. Could you have used an earlier version and I got the new and improved one? I probably don't play at your level, but I think I would have noticed a problem. Very possibly that is the case and that might be good news if it's the explanation (since it would imply they are making some progress on their formulation). Some other people have also they liked DF better than DHS, and also the way you found that it breaks is also a bit different from the ones I had, which tended to fracture. I can't see any difference between the DF in my bucket and the DHS. I definitely did not like the batch I bought (two boxes of 3). They were among the first ones I tried and I didn't buy any more after that. One of the coaches has a bucket of them but I've mainly used them for serving practice. What is the date stamp on your box? I am pretty sure mine were made in June, but I don't have the boxes anymore. The main reason I don't like the Chinese seamed balls I have tried so far is the low bounce. Fragility is bad but does not bother me so much (personally) as a bad bounce. Can you compare your DF to a celluloid by dropping them onto the table and seeing which one bounces higher? It might be the case that the two phenomena are linked -- that is, the same thing that makes some of these balls fragile also prevents them from bouncing the right height? If your balls are still bouncing low compared to celluloid I would probably not like them, even if it is consistent.