OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I can follow your reasoning, but that doesn't give an answer to my objection of lower leveled players playing our highest graded tournaments.



I can agree with this when I extrapolate what I see in my local clubs. XSF is a name not many have heard of before and the Premium balls of Nittaku are hard to get. I'll probably get mine in the end of January or the beginning of February.



Until you play a match with them. That might surprise you. I also didn't have problems when practicing with them until I played a game with them. Those balls just didn't come through like they should or bounce like they should.



I think the price will go down. They'll be using a fabric in China to produce their balls starting in 2015, won't they?



I can confirm we went through several balls in one session. Are you sure you noticed when the ball broke? I find it quite hard to detect it, unless the crack is big enough. You also might be lucky with the quality of balls in your box.

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Since I'm practicing with the Nittaku Premium 40+ (NP40+), I can confirm that the ball does not "come through." As for practice vs. match play, I've been including match play in my practice. In fact, my practice has (unfortunately) been mostly match play. The adaptation to the new ball is on the same order of trouble as adapting to a different table surface or venue. In fact, playing the NP40+ on our club's Butterfly Centerfolds is noticeably different from playing on our club's Killerspin MyT10 tables which have much smoother tops.

Anyway, I didn't have major problems. I'd assume more practiced and skilled players will adapt that much faster. So I don't see all that much of a downside from spending a lot of time with celluloid and then shifting in the short term for a special event or tournament. You just need to alot a week or so for adjustment.


I think it is VERY unlikely that Japan will. Xushaofu is already in China. The other two balls are crap and the fifth manufacturer is (I think) European. So nothing in the manufacturing location is likely to affect the pricing. Economies of scale and competition as more balls make it to the market probably will.

If the information we have been given about all the ills and problems associated with using celluloid are true, then the price should eventually be noticeably less than for celluloid. But my thinking is that all of that was grossly exaggerated and that the best we can hope for is balls that cost the same and perhaps last longer.

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Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

I found the NP40+ pretty easy to adjust to. I am personally happy with either that ball or XSF, but actually prefer XSF. I have noticed, though, that several of my usual European on-line shops don't even sell them. Dandoy does, though.

There is a world of difference between either of those and any of the Chinese seamed balls. That is why my exchanges with AgentHex have been a bit frustrating, since he is suggesting continuously that the differences are so subtle that it's all in my head, and trivial compared to table variation. That's not the case at all. The difference between these two types of good plastic balls and the really bad ones is immediately obvious to just about everyone who tries them, as I'm sure others can attest. It's not a little thing, it's a big thing. That's not to say that tables don't matter but I pretty much only play on really good tables, fortunately.

I doubt NP40+ price will come down very much if it is based on material costs (which are going to be constant regardless of where the balls are made) or if it is a Butterfly-like marketing scheme. But even if they reach $2/ball, when durability factors in XSF is still a better ball.

I agree with Jay about costs of celluloid, he has come up with several interesting reasons lately as to why the explanations for the shift to plastic given by ITTF are even more doubtful than we were thinking at the time (and none of us believed what Sharara was saying even then).

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

I did not mean speaking against the ITTF on the international level. I mean the competitions under jurisdiction of national associations.

The ideal solution would be to let the players decide, celluloid or plastic. The convincing argument is that where the players can really free decide, they choose celluloid, like I said, this is what we see at least in Germany and Belgium. The problem is, however, that in countries like the US it is not the players decision, but the tournament organizers' who can be "motivated" financially. Therefore the plastic ball ban at the USATT sanctioned tournaments (except for a very limited number of high level competitions) is necessary. To protect the players interests.

Most club players in the U.S. do not play in sanctioned tournaments and do not join the USATT as members, so they are already free to choose whatever ball they like. Right now I can tell you most of them at our clubs do not care what ball they use, as long as it's made of good quality and economical. That's it.
As of now, I have yet to meet one fellow club member who objected using the XSF ball that I've provided for free. They don't care about politics, they just want to play for exercise's sake. They mainly buy balls from our clubs' pro shops, so I can easily see -in the near future- when we are able to get XSF balls in large quantities at a more affordable price, no one will care about the celluloid balls anymore.

Your opinion is noted, but I still remember devastating reports on both XSF and Nittaku premium plastic balls.

Anyway, the point is that at least in 2 countries, Germany and Belgium, where people can afford plastic balls, plastic balls have failed on the free market, because players simply choose celluloid for their competitions.

Ah, I thought you were practicing with the chinese seamed balls. My bad! The fact that the ball doesn't come through worries me, though. With "coming through" I mean you can hold the same distance from the table for defense and the ball would fly towards you like a celluloid one. I found the chinese seamed balls to affect this greatly. I positioned myself to make my defensive stroke, only realizing too late that the ball stopped half a meter before me. XSF doesn't have this problem. I haven't used Nittaku Premium yet, but I assumed, because the ball bounce of the Nittaku would be like a a celluloid one, the ball would come through like a celluloid one.



I think it is VERY unlikely that Japan will. Xushaofu is already in China. The other two balls are crap and the fifth manufacturer is (I think) European. So nothing in the manufacturing location is likely to affect the pricing. Economies of scale and competition as more balls make it to the market probably will.

If the information we have been given about all the ills and problems associated with using celluloid are true, then the price should eventually be noticeably less than for celluloid. But my thinking is that all of that was grossly exaggerated and that the best we can hope for is balls that cost the same and perhaps last longer.[/quote]

I thought I read somewhere they'd mass produce the Premium balls in China somewhere in 2015. I read it here on OOAK or MyTT.

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At the moment in Belgium: yes. But people realize they'll be forced to switch to plastic, probably starting next season. I didn't hear from one person preferring the plastic balls here available over the celluloid ones. But only the chinese seamed ones are available here. They don't know a lot (if anything) about the XSF or the Nittaku Premium one, as about the politics that preceded this change of ball.

They swallow the whole thing because they aren't informed. And they aren't interested enough to be informed. It's like politics here: most citizens aren't informed enough and aren't interested to be informed. They are obliged to vote. They vote for the easiest solution (in case of politicians: the one with the sweetest voice) and now we're stuck with a government taking one after the other wrong decision. In case of the ball: only a small group of people will decide what ball will be used, be it either plastic or celluloid. They aren't even chosen. They don't inform the associated members enough or they even don't inform them. That way they keep the people dumb.

That's why I hope DHS goes together again with XSF: that way the plastic seamless ball will become the standard. If not, then these chinese seamed balls will dominate the sport and the sport will end up with an inferior product. Not only will this mean a greater cost for clubs and therefore members, but also a loss in fun playing.

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There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that

The "devastating" reports on XSF are certainly hard to find, unless you are talking about the one you mentioned about the balls exploding dramatically and potentially causing eye injuries (which many of us had a good laugh about). As for NP40+, there is the report you quoted that all of the balls are broken in 15 minutes or something. The truth which we now have with extended experience with a large sample of these balls is that durability is not their strong point, but they are not so fragile for that to be credible. There is a phenomenon called "confirmation bias" at work in the things you say about those two types of balls.

The other point is that among people who have actually played for any length of time with XSF balls, the reports are almost all positive. More and more people are saying this, on every forum. They have had to overcome a lot of resistance because the first versions of seamless balls were pretty strange, and they are not a well known company. The thing is to just get people to try them. I managed today with the fourth former US Men's team member who plays at our club. His instant response was "oh yes, this is quite good". I gave him three so he can keep trying them for awhile.

That said, I agree with you about one thing, I would rather people stayed with celluloid than give any money for bad plastic balls. That would actually be good for the sport.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

I do not think it is probable, since the vast majority of players has spoken already through their choosing celluloid balls for their league competitions, but still it is possible, plastic mafia should not be underestimated. Therefore the players should make their will clear to the officials.

Actually, roundrobin and I have both said we prefer XSF to celluloid. But I am perfectly happy with celluloid. If we go back to that, no complaint from me, but it's not going to happen at this point. I would hesitate to go so far as to say that only the opinions of players in lower level Belgian or German leagues matter.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

I think Baal is right here. Going back to celluloid is not going to happen. Because there are enough plastic balls available at the moment, the Belgian association will certainly follow the ITTF starting from next season and oblige the members to use plastic. It always has been that way. The only question remaining is: which plastic ball will be used? The current chinese seamed balls (at the moment likely - a shame for the sport), a developed chinese seamed ball (highly unlikely), the Nittaku Premium ball (only if the price goes down and the availability goes up - and even then just a small chance) or the XSF ball (as it is now, very unlikely, unless they go together with DHS). I hope one of two latter options.

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There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that

So I bought some Nittaku SHA 40+ made in China balls (not the premium Japan) because the seller said these played different than the other ones that I mentioned.

It's a seamed ball. Only played it for two minutes yesterday. Two things emerge:

- It is so damn hard to get the same amount of speed/spin with this ball (esp. when looping)
- The ball seems to be floating in the air so long... like playing in slow motion... which gives you (and your opponent of course) more time to react. For chopping this could be an advantage when using very grippy or short pimples. It will be easier to keep the ball on the table and there is more time to manipulate spin (but at the same time there is less spin to work with). Rallies could be longer.

More later

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For what it's worth, I have played 12 matches at the nationals this week and I am yet to break an NP40+. I haven't broken one on my recent practices either. If any have been broken in higher level matches, I do not know. But I play at the 1900-2100 level so people hit the ball decently hard.

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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Your dealer doesn't know what he is talking about if he claims the Nittaku SHA is different from the others on your list. (That is useful information for you to know about this dealer if you buy other stuff from him in the future, he is more interested in making a sale than giving you accurate information that can be readily found). I have played with all of the ones you list. The Nittaku SHA is exactly the same as the other Chinese seamed balls on your list. They all have prominent seams, probably all are made by DHS at the same factory, differing only in the label, and they all have the properties of (1) very low bounce (biggest problem); (2) poor durability; (3) deviation from roundness, and (4) quite heavy (>2.80 grams). That is in addition to what you mentioned.

The only two plastic 40+ balls that don't have these problems are Chinese seamless balls (all made by XSF, and including Yinhe, Stag, Nexy, and some others); and the Nittaku Premium 40+ ball made in Japan.

If you can't find them at your dealer, you can buy them online. Now, all 40+ balls are a little slower and less spinny, that comes from the average of 0.5mm greater size, but it is easy to cope with that if the ball bounces properly. Among those two, the XSF balls (or balls made by them) are a bit easier to find, and a lot cheaper.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH