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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2015, 19:59 
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Well, for what it's worth: I also had the impression the Nittaku Premimum was less spinny than the XSF. I only played with it for five minutes, though. Maybe you have to do some technical changes between the two balls to get the best out of them.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2015, 20:08 
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Jesus, that's a big loss :o

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2015, 21:13 
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dunc wrote:
Jesus, that's a big loss :o


haha well, we simply switched the balls: its a small club with our team and only a few very low division/amateur teams, so now they get to play with the premiums ;)

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2015, 22:54 
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My Nittaku 40+ premium balls are on route from Japan at the moment. I had great expectations that they would be more enjoyable to play with that the XSF. Really surprised that a seamed quality ball would have less spin than a seamless.
Key difference that I see between Baal's opinion and the others is that he is using inverted whilst the others are using anti or LP. Is that where the differences are coming from ?

P.S. if anyone is looking for a large quantity of Nittaku 40+ Premium contra.de had them in large quantities. 120 works out at €2.40 a ball. You can now buy a box of 3 now for €7.50 which wasn't available last week.


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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2015, 23:31 
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AA was using anti but his partner was using inverted to loop at him. Both agreed that the Nittaku was less spinny.

That's the only report I've heard to suggest the Premium is less spinny but I don't know many people who have used the ball.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2015, 23:56 
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dunc wrote:

That's the only report I've heard to suggest the Premium is less spinny but I don't know many people who have used the ball.


Lorre wrote:
Well, for what it's worth: I also had the impression the Nittaku Premimum was less spinny than the XSF. I only played with it for five minutes, though. Maybe you have to do some technical changes between the two balls to get the best out of them.


the loopers in my club had no problem with the ball and wouldnt have noticed the difference in spin when playing amongst each other. some only claimed that it felt slightly heavier and that they had to put more effort into their strokes. slick antis have a lot to do with spinreversal and thus it makes sense that the difference would become apparent when playing against slick antis/me.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 00:01 
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AA wrote:
the loopers in my club had no problem with the ball and wouldnt have noticed the difference in spin when playing amongst each other. some only claimed that it felt slightly heavier and that they had to put more effort into their strokes. slick antis have a lot to do with spinreversal and thus it makes sense that the difference would become apparent when playing against slick antis/me.


Maybe the ball grips the rubber more and therefore there is less spin reversal?

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 00:23 
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Lorre wrote:

Maybe the ball grips the rubber more and therefore there is less spin reversal?


i assume the key lays in the "dusty" non-slick surface.

update: a friend of mine who really tries everything (slick anti player) confirmed that he also thought the nittaku premium was bad in the mentioned sense. he also got hold of the new butterfly balls today that will be released soon and gave me a call. he claims that unlike the other polyballs and just like the nittaku premium, it is darker in colour and about as durable. however this ball too is less spinny. this ball apparantly is produced in japan. would be interesting to know whether its the same factory. i assume that whatever is making the balls more durable and darker is messing with the spin characteristics.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 02:48 
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I thought that the newer butterfly poly balls were being made in Germany ?

If the Nittaku Premium balls are made in Japan - is the factory located in Japan or are they made elsewhere under Japanese management ?


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 02:49 
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AA wrote:
i assume the key lays in the "dusty" non-slick surface.

update: a friend of mine who really tries everything (slick anti player) confirmed that he also thought the nittaku premium was bad in the mentioned sense. he also got hold of the new butterfly balls today that will be released soon and gave me a call. he claims that unlike the other polyballs and just like the nittaku premium, it is darker in colour and about as durable. however this ball too is less spinny. this ball apparantly is produced in japan. would be interesting to know whether its the same factory. i assume that whatever is making the balls more durable and darker is messing with the spin characteristics.


Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the Nittaku and Butterfly are also less spinny. The first loads of the Chinese seamed crap was also less spinny and it was like the ball grabbed the rubber more, especially noticeable with LPs (DTecs at that time).

Off course this is all speculation: I only played the ball for 5 minutes. I need to have more training hours before I can give a more trustworthy opinion.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 03:11 
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AA wrote:
Baal wrote:

You directly measured rotations per second? Of course not. So more likely, one guy looped and the other guy blocked and you each had an impression as to how spinny the ball is.



i was blocking with my slick anti and he was looping, it was one and the same person. we did a direct comparison extensively and as mentioned, the "impression" was stark.


And yet it is still an impression. You did not measure rotations/second with a high speed camera or something like that. Clearly from this thread different players are getting different impressions, and that shows the difficulty in judging "spin". What is it that is happening with one ball more than another that a player interprets as due to the spin? Many different things. To be honest, it might even depend some on what table you are using. (This is also why I have tended to ignore rubber reviews where people say one kind of rubber generates more spin than another). On average the NP40+ is very slightly smaller in diameter (this I have measured very carefully) and definitely lighter than seamless (this I have also measured very carefully with a laboratory balance) and therefore the NP40+ ought to spin just a little more -- but who knows it may not. The differences that I thought I saw -- which is that NP40+ flies a little faster and spins more than XSF -- were not big effectsl. I like both balls, but it takes me a few minutes to adjust to one when I have played a lot with the other. They are certainly not the same. They both have nice high bounces. I am content with either one. My preference from a purely playing point of view is for NP40+ and my game relies a lot on spin. I prefer the cost and availability of seamless. I still have yet to find a seamed Chinese ball that I like.

And let me emphasize again, I have collectively hundreds of hours with both types of balls over the last 18 months (those two are pretty much all I use over that period).

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 05:55 
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Baal wrote:



And yet it is still an impression. You did not measure rotations/second with a high speed camera or something like that. To be honest, it might even depend some on what table you are using.


how can it be the table if the same table is used and the same player is looping in the same hall and the only variable is the ball? :^)

we repeated the same experiment tonight and again: the difference is like day and night. it is not an "impression". with the nittaku premium the looper (tonight we tried all three players with both the nittaku premium and 3 other polys as alternative) could loop my blocks much much easier, looping up to 4-6 times on average without mistake, whilst all other polyballs returned much more spin, that the looper looped into the net after my second or third block at the latest...as mentioned: stark difference, also concerning trajectory and length of the ball. all three loopers confirmed that my blocks had a much greater amount of backspin with the other polyballs.

one of them also had the new butterfly prototype with him...and i must say, its really awful...even worse than the nittaku premium or the hanno ball...it actually reminded me a lot of the hanno ball. it has the worst sound of all polyballs ever made, a very shrill sound like or even worse than the very first polyballs that came out back in the days...the bounce was higher than with the other polyballs and also the spin was less...again it felt harder than the other polyballs and was darker. it was so awful that we all thought it was a bad joke and quickly put it back in the box because it was entirely useless. really hope they are not seriously considering to release this awful product.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 06:08 
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Baal wrote:
AA wrote:
Baal wrote:

You directly measured rotations per second? Of course not. So more likely, one guy looped and the other guy blocked and you each had an impression as to how spinny the ball is.



i was blocking with my slick anti and he was looping, it was one and the same person. we did a direct comparison extensively and as mentioned, the "impression" was stark.


And yet it is still an impression. You did not measure rotations/second with a high speed camera or something like that. Clearly from this thread different players are getting different impressions, and that shows the difficulty in judging "spin". What is it that is happening with one ball more than another that a player interprets as due to the spin? Many different things. To be honest, it might even depend some on what table you are using. (This is also why I have tended to ignore rubber reviews where people say one kind of rubber generates more spin than another). On average the NP40+ is very slightly smaller in diameter (this I have measured very carefully) and definitely lighter than seamless (this I have also measured very carefully with a laboratory balance) and therefore the NP40+ ought to spin just a little more -- but who knows it may not. The differences that I thought I saw -- which is that NP40+ flies a little faster and spins more than XSF -- were not big effectsl. I like both balls, but it takes me a few minutes to adjust to one when I have played a lot with the other. They are certainly not the same. They both have nice high bounces. I am content with either one. My preference from a purely playing point of view is for NP40+ and my game relies a lot on spin. I prefer the cost and availability of seamless. I still have yet to find a seamed Chinese ball that I like.

And let me emphasize again, I have collectively hundreds of hours with both types of balls over the last 18 months (those two are pretty much all I use over that period).



To be fair, I've seen quite a few times on this forum people claiming that rubber A produces more spin than rubber B (same for blades) - without any high speed camera results. These claims usually go unchallenged - not sure why this case is special, since impressions are subjective anyway.

Regarding NP40+ - decent ball, but way overpriced and hard to find. I happen to prefer seamless variant because of color and surface - NP is too 'creamy' and shiny for me.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 10:01 
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This is one of my pet peeves with table tennis equipment. You go to tabletennisdb.com and you'll find page after page of reviews. The numerical ratings are one thing - they're subjective, based on no actual measurements or calibrated scale, though no one (except rank newbies discovering this stuff for the first time) takes them seriously, except in very broad terms. It's the added comments at the bottom of the reviews that get me. Supposedly this rubber is good for looping and bad for blocking, that one chops great but loops poorly, etc. And about 90% of the rubbers are "great" or "fantastic". When I actually try the rubbers myself, the difference between them is so slight I have to really concentrate to feel any difference. Even mounted on opposite sides of the same blade the differences are so subtle I have to deliberately try different shots with each rubber in turn in order to discern the very slight difference. Doesn't matter - Tensor, Chinese, etc. they all play very much alike rather than differently. Blades, on the other hand, differ a lot more, and I can tell the difference outright.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2015, 20:47 
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iskandar taib wrote:
This is one of my pet peeves with table tennis equipment. You go to tabletennisdb.com and you'll find page after page of reviews. The numerical ratings are one thing - they're subjective, based on no actual measurements or calibrated scale, though no one (except rank newbies discovering this stuff for the first time) takes them seriously, except in very broad terms. It's the added comments at the bottom of the reviews that get me. Supposedly this rubber is good for looping and bad for blocking, that one chops great but loops poorly, etc. And about 90% of the rubbers are "great" or "fantastic". When I actually try the rubbers myself, the difference between them is so slight I have to really concentrate to feel any difference. Even mounted on opposite sides of the same blade the differences are so subtle I have to deliberately try different shots with each rubber in turn in order to discern the very slight difference. Doesn't matter - Tensor, Chinese, etc. they all play very much alike rather than differently. Blades, on the other hand, differ a lot more, and I can tell the difference outright.

Iskandar


You can do everything with everything, but (1) some things are easier to do with rubber X than with rubber Y, (2) some things are different (flight trajectory, feel,...) if you compare rubber X with rubber Y and (3) some things are better with rubber X than with rubber Y, but that's only relevant when you're past a certain level. People claiming there's no difference in equipment and people who exeggarate the differences are one and the same: they are low leveled. I still need to find a low leveled player who doesn't belong in one of these two categories. And yes: I was once myself a low leveled player belonging in the category of the exeggarators.

My motto: you have a natural inclination (i;e. style), you use equipment that belongs to that style and the rest is training, training, training,...

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