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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2017, 10:24 
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I finally had a go with one of these balls yesterday at the club, as a friend brought one in. My comparison is to the regular DHS 40+ that our local leagues have been using for the last 2 years.

The sound of the bounce certainly makes it stand out... it sounds a lot like the very first seamless that came out.

The bounce is definitely higher than the regular DHS 40+ that we're used to here. I did not notice much difference in speed.

Curve on the ball is significantly less, which is disappointing for me. You can certainly still spin the ball and get some curve, but loops don't have the same dip to make them land, and there's less sidespin curve on the ball to make the ball curve in if you're out wide.

It also seem that my rubber was less affected by spin, so blocking and hitting through the ball was easier.

So I can certainly see why people say the ball is less spinny, as both of these points support this. I could still put plenty of spin on my serves though, I could see it on the label. Compared to the seamless balls I've tried, I prefer this ball, as the spin is definitely better.

Anyone else tried it yet?

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2017, 20:00 
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haggisv wrote:
I finally had a go with one of these balls yesterday at the club, as a friend brought one in. My comparison is to the regular DHS 40+ that our local leagues have been using for the last 2 years...

Curve on the ball is significantly less, which is disappointing for me. You can certainly still spin the ball and get some curve, but loops don't have the same dip to make them land, and there's less sidespin curve on the ball to make the ball curve in if you're out wide.

It also seem that my rubber was less affected by spin, so blocking and hitting through the ball was easier.

So I can certainly see why people say the ball is less spinny, as both of these points support this. I could still put plenty of spin on my serves though, I could see it on the label. Compared to the seamless balls I've tried, I prefer this ball, as the spin is definitely better.

Anyone else tried it yet?


I'm confused haggiv. You say you prefer this ball as the spin is better but you also say you get less curve and dip on the ball which suggests less spin not more.

Or could it be that the surface of this ball is different ie smoother so that although it rotates more (?) indicating more spin, the smoothness of the ball negates the amount of rotation in the air and on contact with other surfaces?

Makes it kind of deceptive if that's the case. You see a rapidly spinning ball and expect curve and dip and reaction to your rubber but in reality it delivers less than expected and you mistime the ball or get your bat angle wrong. Another example how rotation and ball surface both have an impact on the perception of spin?

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2017, 20:11 
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I prefer it to the seamless I've tried, as the seamless is much less spinny. However the DHS 40+ (as opposed to the D40+) definitely curves a lot more, so for spin I prefer the DHS 40+. The durability was always an issue with the DHS 40+ though, and it seems the D40+ is a lot more durable.

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2017, 23:17 
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Haggis, here's my take on it FWIW.

If you have been playing for years with the DHS40+, then you have gotten used to a ball with a low bounce relative to celluloid that is essentially not round. The lack of roundness and high deformability of cellulose acetate makes it curve more in the air, and the lower bounce means your blade has a little different trajectory hitting the ball and you have gotten accustomed to that.

ABS balls are harder and are perfectly round. The hardness of the ABS material is why people often describe Nittaku Premium balls as being "heavy" when they are in fact the lightest 40+ ball currently sold. (Average weight 2.68 grams compared to 2.76 for DHS40+ and seamless). As you get used to ABS balls, either the Nittaku or the D40+, you will like them a lot. The consistency of the bounce is what will sell you. They bounce exactly the same height as celluloid, which is in marked contrast to the DHS40+ you have been using (which bounce lower) or seamless (which bounce a little higher).

At the end of the day what will sell you even more on the D40+ is price and durability along with consistent playing properties.

ABS balls do not have a slick surface, by the way. Rub two together you can feel and hear it. (For slick balls, try Butterfly G40+).

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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2017, 17:19 
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Tacky rubber users have an affinity with the old DHS 40+ I think. When those kinds of balls were dominant, I used Big Dipper as it was the only thing I could use comfortably on those balls and control the bounce to my satisfaction. Once the seamless ball became more popular in my area, I felt less of a need to stick to tacky stuff. Tacky rubbers could do some pretty amazing things to the old ball and they can do some interesting things to this ball, just not as amazing as haggisv would like. I think until DHS invents a new technology, this will level the playing field at top levels a little bit.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 21:19 
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Baal wrote:
Haggis, here's my take on it FWIW.

If you have been playing for years with the DHS40+, then you have gotten used to a ball with a low bounce relative to celluloid that is essentially not round. The lack of roundness and high deformability of cellulose acetate makes it curve more in the air, and the lower bounce means your blade has a little different trajectory hitting the ball and you have gotten accustomed to that.

ABS balls are harder and are perfectly round. The hardness of the ABS material is why people often describe Nittaku Premium balls as being "heavy" when they are in fact the lightest 40+ ball currently sold. (Average weight 2.68 grams compared to 2.76 for DHS40+ and seamless). As you get used to ABS balls, either the Nittaku or the D40+, you will like them a lot. The consistency of the bounce is what will sell you. They bounce exactly the same height as celluloid, which is in marked contrast to the DHS40+ you have been using (which bounce lower) or seamless (which bounce a little higher).

At the end of the day what will sell you even more on the D40+ is price and durability along with consistent playing properties.

ABS balls do not have a slick surface, by the way. Rub two together you can feel and hear it. (For slick balls, try Butterfly G40+).


I've only tried one D40+ ball, so my findings are not conclusive, but I'm quite convinced the ball carries less spin, by the evidence outlined above. My game is very much based on spin not speed, so I'm quite sensitive and reliant on the amount of spin on the ball, and it really stood out for me. My opponent also had less trouble with my heavy spin loops, so that's further evidence.
As I mentioned, the seamless were clearly less spinny compared to the D40+ as the curve on the ball was clearly less, so the D40+ quite an improvement on this, but if it proves to be significantly less spinny, it would be negative for my game.
Anyway we've got some of these coming in, so I'll be testing more balls, and will try and keep an open mind. Quality and price is certainly important too, so if these are better quality, more durable and less expensive, it would be a good step forwards for most people and clubs.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 22:38 
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haggisv wrote:
Baal wrote:
Haggis, here's my take on it FWIW.

If you have been playing for years with the DHS40+, then you have gotten used to a ball with a low bounce relative to celluloid that is essentially not round. The lack of roundness and high deformability of cellulose acetate makes it curve more in the air, and the lower bounce means your blade has a little different trajectory hitting the ball and you have gotten accustomed to that.

ABS balls are harder and are perfectly round. The hardness of the ABS material is why people often describe Nittaku Premium balls as being "heavy" when they are in fact the lightest 40+ ball currently sold. (Average weight 2.68 grams compared to 2.76 for DHS40+ and seamless). As you get used to ABS balls, either the Nittaku or the D40+, you will like them a lot. The consistency of the bounce is what will sell you. They bounce exactly the same height as celluloid, which is in marked contrast to the DHS40+ you have been using (which bounce lower) or seamless (which bounce a little higher).

At the end of the day what will sell you even more on the D40+ is price and durability along with consistent playing properties.

ABS balls do not have a slick surface, by the way. Rub two together you can feel and hear it. (For slick balls, try Butterfly G40+).


I've only tried one D40+ ball, so my findings are not conclusive, but I'm quite convinced the ball carries less spin, by the evidence outlined above. My game is very much based on spin not speed, so I'm quite sensitive and reliant on the amount of spin on the ball, and it really stood out for me. My opponent also had less trouble with my heavy spin loops, so that's further evidence.
As I mentioned, the seamless were clearly less spinny compared to the D40+ as the curve on the ball was clearly less, so the D40+ quite an improvement on this, but if it proves to be significantly less spinny, it would be negative for my game.
Anyway we've got some of these coming in, so I'll be testing more balls, and will try and keep an open mind. Quality and price is certainly important too, so if these are better quality, more durable and less expensive, it would be a good step forwards for most people and clubs.


That evidence is not really evidence haggis. The thing you are attributing to spin is almost certainly the greater roundness and hardness and a slightly higher bounce. In any case, better get used to them because this is the future.

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 02:02 
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If you have a hard enough swing and deform the ball more, you might actually find the seamless ball spinnier than the Nittaku and D40+. But if you focus on bounce height, you might find the Seamless less spinny, especially on serves.

A player who I usually think from his comments isn't quite reliable when it comes to stuff like this made an observation that most people who like the ABS balls use composite blades in his club. That is something worth testing and might have some legs. I started using a composite after I switched to Karis and I feel less out of place with the plastic balls than I used to. Maybe because such blades support a power game?

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 10:01 
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Baal wrote:
That evidence is not really evidence haggis. The thing you are attributing to spin is almost certainly the greater roundness and hardness and a slightly higher bounce.
No evidence? :o
More curve on the ball is evidence of more spin, just like less curve is evidence of less spin. I don't dismiss that there may be other explanations, but neither should you dismiss the possibility that the ball does indeed carry less spin.
Similarly how the ball reacts off the opponent's bat is evidence of the amount of spin. Again there may be other explanation, but one explanation is that the ball carries less spin.
Without further testing I can't be sure that the ball does indeed carry less spin, but similarly you can't be sure that the ball does indeed carry less spin.
I want to like these new balls as they're cheaper and appear to be higher quality and more durable, so I'm trying to be as objective as possible... and I hope you are also open to the possibility that the ball does indeed carry less spin, and not dismiss people's views because there are other explanation.
Baal wrote:
In any case, better get used to them because this is the future.

That I can agree on. :lol:

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 12:07 
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More spin, less spin, or same spin?

What haggisv is describing is what a few are calling spin effect. No-one apparently has measured the RPM of a plastic ball versus the RPM of a celluloid ball from a standardized source, let alone the RPM of a seamless 40+ ball versus a DHS D40+ versus a NP40+ versus a DHS 40+ versus ...

What people have observed is the effect of spin being different among the different ball manufacturers from their own strokes with their own blades and their own rubbers. Reasons for the difference can be (and this is not exhaustive):

    Difference in their stroke because the ball bounces differently
    Difference in hardness of the balls, causing them to deform more or less, causing more or less surface area to come in contact with the rubber
    Difference in hardness of the sponge behind their rubber, similar to the previous point
    Difference in weight of the ball
    Difference in diameter of the ball
    Difference in smoothness of the ball, affecting all of the initial imparting of spin, the magnus effect causing the deviation as it travels through the air and also how it bounces off the table

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 00:30 
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I tend to agree with haggisv that the D40+ are somehow marginally less..... dangerous? .... than other balls, including seamless (which we mostly use). I don't even think that the D40+ are spinnier than xsf seamless, equal at best and also think they may be a touch slower? We don't use many seamed balls so I can't objectively comment, but I can say I absolutely hated the ultra-low bounce (and failure to 'come through') of the original seamed.

On the plus side those I have used have been perfectly round, and are very durable (only one broken to date) and the bounce is ultra-consistent. I've slipped the balls into matches and local tournaments and had a total of zero adverse comments (yes, only one broken ball in many tens of hours play).

Finally... and this may be my imagination ... but in the same way you adjust to a slower setup and work harder, after a few sessions with this ball it felt that I was generating really good spin and speed again by concentrating on technique.

I should add that I find far more variability between venues than between balls, and in the UK it tends to be a different venue every night! I will regularly play in 4 different venues each week. My point being that with the differences between balls being so marginal, and these being cheap, consistent and durable, it seems a no brainer choice to me.

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 01:47 
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haggisv wrote:
Baal wrote:
That evidence is not really evidence haggis. The thing you are attributing to spin is almost certainly the greater roundness and hardness and a slightly higher bounce.
No evidence? :o
More curve on the ball is evidence of more spin, just like less curve is evidence of less spin. I don't dismiss that there may be other explanations, but neither should you dismiss the possibility that the ball does indeed carry less spin.
Similarly how the ball reacts off the opponent's bat is evidence of the amount of spin. Again there may be other explanation, but one explanation is that the ball carries less spin.
Without further testing I can't be sure that the ball does indeed carry less spin, but similarly you can't be sure that the ball does indeed carry less spin.
I want to like these new balls as they're cheaper and appear to be higher quality and more durable, so I'm trying to be as objective as possible... and I hope you are also open to the possibility that the ball does indeed carry less spin, and not dismiss people's views because there are other explanation.
Baal wrote:
In any case, better get used to them because this is the future.

That I can agree on. :lol:


It is not evidence when there are equally or more plausible explanations for both things you think you see. Or more precisely, one can't conclude anything from it.

More curve on the ball could also be evidence of lack of roundness or how much it deformed in the initial portion of its flight off the bat. How the ball reacts on the opponent's bat depends on ball speed, ball location, height, opponent's timing, all sorts of things. When you are playing with soft low bouncing eggs it will be different from harder rounder balls that bounce higher and more consistently.

And spin in terms of revs/sec or angular momentum for both of those would affect things also. It is just extremely unlikely that there is any real difference in revs/sec between, say, seamless or D40+. Why would that happen? It is certainly not attributable to surface texture.

Ball arc is also incredibly subjective without video.

In other words, I completely agree with what Retreiver just wrote -- it is also what I have been writing for the last couple of weeks at TT forums including this one until my fingers get sore.

Edit added. I have done the added test of playing blind and sneaking them in with playing partners to see if they notice. I have done this many times now.

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 03:03 
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I was about to spend a bunch on some NP40+ training balls for the robot, finally removing the celluloid balls from the rotation but Baal knows what's up and ordered 72 balls of the D40+

Once I verify I'll order another lot or two.

This is all rather encouraging news for the pro tour and for players in general. NP40+ may end up being the best ball but it's wonderful to know there will be a mass distro of a ball with largely similar properties for the whole world at a decent price.


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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 03:30 
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Baal wrote:
...
I have done the added test of playing blind and sneaking them in with playing partners to see if they notice. I have done this many times now.


I find it amazing that your playing partners don't pay attention to the ball they are playing with. After all, the labels are not small and players stare at the ball during serve quite a bit. :?:

Not disputing your findings, but wonder if it was truly 'blind' in that regard.

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 08:09 
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pgpg wrote:
Baal wrote:
...
I have done the added test of playing blind and sneaking them in with playing partners to see if they notice. I have done this many times now.


I find it amazing that your playing partners don't pay attention to the ball they are playing with. After all, the labels are not small and players stare at the ball during serve quite a bit. :?:

Not disputing your findings, but wonder if it was truly 'blind' in that regard.

Many players here really don't care and just get on with it. That's not saying there isn't difference between balls, but as long as someone else supplies it and it isn't wildly different.......

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