OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 24 Oct 2017, 10:06


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2017, 21:58 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2906
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 139 times
Red wrote:
Lesser spin compared to Nittaku Premium? Forget this ball, hail the seamless which is, so far, cheaper with better or similar durability.


In fact, the D40+ is considerably cheaper than seamless and there is no way I will agree that the D40+ has "less spin" than a seamless.

Actually, I was the first person on English language forums who strongly promoted seamless balls which you could verify by checking my posting history here. At the time that view that ran strongly counter to expectations based on the awful prototype seamless balls we had initially. My opinion was met with considerable initial skepticism. But no doubt, the seamless have proved to be reasonably good balls, especially if one avoids XSF in recent months, who has let their QC slip (mainly a roundness issue).

And with that said, I don't think I will be buying many seamless balls in the future. I think these D40+ are better and again, I note, as of now they are considerably cheaper.

By the way, if you haven't actually tried a particular ball, you ought not to criticize it. I have tried all of the classes of 40+ balls, extensively. I have tried them in blind tests, I have weighed them, I have checked their bounce heights, I have played countless matches with them and I have given them away to very good (professional) players to get their opinions. I strongly dislike ALL Chinese cellulose acetate seamed balls, I dislike Butterfly G40+ almost as much, I like most seamless balls (especially the ones from Yinhe, Nexy and Xiom), I like Nittaku Premium, and I like these new D40+.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Last edited by Baal on 14 Mar 2017, 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: 14 Mar 2017, 22:17 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 08 Apr 2015, 11:50
Posts: 700
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Are all the balls with DN on the box the D40+? D for Ding?

And are they similar enough to the NPs to switch seamlessly back and forth? If so would make a good training ball at the price.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2017, 22:27 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2906
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 139 times
BRS wrote:
Are all the balls with DN on the box the D40+? D for Ding?

And are they similar enough to the NPs to switch seamlessly back and forth? If so would make a good training ball at the price.


I am able to switch seamlessly (nice pun). You will notice if you pay really close attention that the D40+ makes a slightly higher pitched sound on impact with the table. Also it averages 2.76 grams as opposed to 2.69 grams for Nittaku Premium so that will have an impact. (It might feel maybe a bit more "solid" for lack of a better term). The plastic is the same material, and they bounce exactly the same height. When I had the mindset of really looking hard for a difference, I could sort of feel something when I altered from one type of ball to another on subsequent rallies. I think it is the weight.

I would describe the difference between NP40+ and D40+ as a return to what we had in celluloid era. A few years ago it was true that balls from different manufacturers were not absolutely identical and people had preferences (even then I liked Nittaku Japan celluloid balls best). However the differences were really not all that important. In much the same way, the differences now between NP40+ and D40+ are not really all that important. In fact, I have a bunch of training partners who are "NP40+ snobs". They won't play with anything else, they would object when I pulled out seamless balls. This week when I played with D40+ without telling them, they didn't notice until I told them. Now they are sold on these balls. (This is four different people).

Actually, I could imagine that some people might prefer the D40+ (to the extent that they can tell the difference and/or have a preference).

Yes, I think the boxes with Ding Ning are all D40+, at least at the moment.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 02:01 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2016, 15:12
Posts: 361
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 60 times
Blade: Palio TCT
FH: Palio CJ8000
BH: Kokutaku Tuple 110
I considered to buy some of the D40+ but now I refuse to even test them.
It's not on me to give prove for their shortcomings nor is it on a player of 2nd Austrian Bundesliga to give evidence with high-speed cams to support the less-spin-theory when even Liu Guoliang has said these balls in fact are less spinny compared to NP40.
I am not sold.
it's on the manufacturer to prove its products usability, especially when the very manufacturer did fell short in the past.

_________________
Red is blogging here >> http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=30522


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 02:28 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2906
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 139 times
Red wrote:
I considered to buy some of the D40+ but now I refuse to even test them.
It's not on me to give prove for their shortcomings nor is it on a player of 2nd Austrian Bundesliga to give evidence with high-speed cams to support the less-spin-theory when even Liu Guoliang has said these balls in fact are less spinny compared to NP40.
I am not sold.
it's on the manufacturer to prove its products usability, especially when the very manufacturer did fell short in the past.


For sure, DHS did not earn anyone's trust with the crap they were selling the last few years. A scandalous pile of garbage! So I can understand your sentiment.

As for LGL, he mentioned that D40+ spins less, but I don't know what ball he was comparing to. I don't speak Chinese so only read English translations, but I did not getting the impression that he said the D40+ spins less than NP40+. The D40+ is a little bit heavier than NP40+, so it is definitely plausible, but it is not a very big effect. They weight the same as seamless balls, so if you like seamless (as I do) then the weight of D40+ is not going to be a problem for you.

Anyway, I have no dog in this fight, I don't work for any ball company. I am not trying to sell anyone anything. I have a lot of experience on this one topic, and people are free to judge whether or not I have a history of providing useful and accurate information on 40+ balls. My posting history is readily seen on three different English language table tennis forums. I personally think you are missing out on a good ball that is being sold at a good price. I paid 15 dollars for a box of 12 D40+ and that included shipping from China. Can you get seamless for that price?

Let me add another note. According to his comments, AA dislikes seamless balls (Joola Flash and Hanno), G40+ balls and Nittaku Premium. Among plastic balls, he only seems to like 40+ Chinese seamed cellulose acetate balls that you and I agree are a major blemish on the DHS reputation! He is entitled to his opinion but take account of what seems good to him, it doesn't seem to square with your preferences.

Red, you also mentioned not liking G40+ (I agree and for all the reasons you have mentioned on various threads, especially the stupid slick surface), and liking seamless (I agree) and you have not tried the Nittaku Premium. So we seem to have similar preferences in balls. FWIW.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Last edited by Baal on 16 Mar 2017, 00:10, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 02:52 
Online
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2013, 00:48
Posts: 977
Location: Boston
Has thanked: 275 times
Been thanked: 201 times
Blade: VKM ST
FH: VS>401
BH: Air UpUpUp 1mm
Baal wrote:

...
I paid 15 dollars for a box of 12 D40+ and that included shipping from China. Can you get seamless for that price?


http://colestt.com/balls.php

5.50 for a box of 6, 137$ for a gross (144 balls). The only place I know that sells it that cheap, though. If DHS puts a downward price pressure on balls market, that's good news in my book.

_________________
USATT: 1693| League: 1816


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 03:07 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 16 Sep 2012, 19:52
Posts: 265
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 49 times
Blade: OSP Virtuoso +
FH: Xiom Ω V Asia Max
BH: Xiom Ω V Asia Max
Baal wrote:
As for LGL, he mentioned that D40+ spins less, but I don't know what ball he was comparing to. I don't speak Chinese so only read English translations, but I did not getting the impression that he said the D40+ spins less than NP40+. The D40+ is a little bit heavier than NP40+, so it is definitely plausible, but it is not a very big effect. They weight the same as seamless balls, so if you like seamless (as I do) then the weight of D40+ is not going to be a problem for you.

Since DHS is a CNT sponsor, and DHS balls are used at major ITTF events, it's unlikely he's comparing it to the NP+ ball and more likely he's comparing it to the previous DHS ball.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2017, 09:02 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 02:36
Posts: 42
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Blade: Timo boll alc
FH: Tenergy 80
Palio ball 40+ *3 I think is one of the spinniest plastic ball I ever used, you should give it a try. Forget g40+ and nittaku premium, they are too heavy, less spinny and expensive

Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2017, 10:28 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2906
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 139 times
Joewilmar wrote:
Palio ball 40+ *3 I think is one of the spinniest plastic ball I ever used, you should give it a try. Forget g40+ and nittaku premium, they are too heavy, less spinny and expensive

Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk


A few notes on this. The seamless balls pretty much all weigh in the range of 2.76 grams, and this includes Palio. I should mention that the first seamless 3* balls I ever tried had a Palio label and they actually convinced me that seamless balls could be quite good! The seamless balls, which appear to be the product of a single factory, were the first ones to actually meet the January 2015 weight standards demanded by ITTF (for quite awhile the cellulose acetate 40+ balls were too heavy). By contrast, Nittaku Premiums have always been around 2.68-2.69 grams, and if they got any lighter ITTF would not approve them according to the standards they set in Technical Bulletin T3. One of the ITTF's main agendas in switching to plastic (beyond manufacturing safety) was to make the balls larger and heavier. There was an interesting thread here at OOAK forum, that began in mid 2014, where one of the ITTF officials (Torsten Kueneth) was kind enough to comment. In defense of the ITTF, he said that although the rules on balls since early 2000s specified 40 mm, the celluloid balls were typically closer to 39 mm. Therefore the move to 40+ was really nothing more than an enforcement of rules they already had. (Clearly part of an agenda they have had for years to slow the game down, some would say to also dumb it down). It is a long thread, interesting historically, found here:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=26354

A lot of people think Nittaku Premiums are heavier when they play with them but they aren't. They feel kind of solid, though. G40+ and seamless are actually pretty close to the same weight (not based on feel, based on measurements with a calibrated laboratory balance). I agree that all of those balls are too expensive. Because seamless balls are much more durable, they have been by far the most economical choice, especially if you buy them from Cole Ely.

Until now.

You can buy the new 3* D40+ balls from ttnpp for as low as $0.56 per ball!. I paid more than that on a different site in China, but the point is that these D40+ balls appear to be coming in at a better price. I am pretty sure they won't be that cheap when they are sold more generally on non-Chinese websites, but they will still be cheaper than the others sold at the same sites.

Another thing is that it is looking like these ABS balls (the name of the material used in Nittaku and D40+) will very soon be offered by many different companies, presumably mostly re-branded versions of the DHS. However I noticed that Double Fish has a 1* ABS ball now, so it is probably not long before they offer a 3* version, which may be the product of a different factory (I am not entirely sure about that). In any case, the ABS 40+ balls in all of their brand versions will probably exert some downward price pressure on the balls, or so one hopes. One also hopes that they will maintain the current quality.

At some of the other English language TT websites you will find that I am far from the only person who is pretty happy with these new D40+ balls. I know you can't please everybody. I learned to my amazement here that the cellulose acetate 40+ balls have their fans, like AA. In any case, since I have disliked all of the previous DHS plastic balls, I was very pleasantly surprised at how good these were. They are round, durable, and they have an excellent and very consistent bounce. I have a lot of fun playing with them, as with seamless balls and with the Nittaku Premiums. (I personally dislike the G40+ and cellulose acetate 40+ intensely).

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2017, 22:57 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2616
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 234 times
Blade: Ovtcharov True Carbon FL
FH: Vega Pro 2.0 B
BH: Vega Pro 2.0 R
pgpg wrote:
Baal wrote:

...
I paid 15 dollars for a box of 12 D40+ and that included shipping from China. Can you get seamless for that price?


http://colestt.com/balls.php

5.50 for a box of 6, 137$ for a gross (144 balls). The only place I know that sells it that cheap, though. If DHS puts a downward price pressure on balls market, that's good news in my book.



Yeah, you can easily get seamless balls at Baal's price. That said, ttnpp.com is selling the D40+ at 6 for $3.50 retail and 72 for $40. That is similar to some old celluloid ball prices and might lead to the death of the seamless ball.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2017, 23:14 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2016, 15:12
Posts: 361
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 60 times
Blade: Palio TCT
FH: Palio CJ8000
BH: Kokutaku Tuple 110
NextLevel wrote:
pgpg wrote:
Baal wrote:

...
I paid 15 dollars for a box of 12 D40+ and that included shipping from China. Can you get seamless for that price?


http://colestt.com/balls.php

5.50 for a box of 6, 137$ for a gross (144 balls). The only place I know that sells it that cheap, though. If DHS puts a downward price pressure on balls market, that's good news in my book.



Yeah, you can easily get seamless balls at Baal's price. That said, ttnpp.com is selling the D40+ at 6 for $3.50 retail and 72 for $40. That is similar to some old celluloid ball prices and might lead to the death of the seamless ball.


I guess there's quite a huge margin to bridge before any of the producers will tag the production-cost line in a downward-spiral. Just compare the prices and usual quantities with tennis- or golf-balls.
I think the first to pass out will be Butterfly which is a good thing at the moment. Nittaku may continue with their luxury price-tag still claiming to have the top-notch ball and it will still sell.

_________________
Red is blogging here >> http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=30522


Last edited by Red on 17 Mar 2017, 23:36, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2017, 23:14 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 13:44
Posts: 2906
Location: Houston
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 139 times
NextLevel wrote:
pgpg wrote:
Baal wrote:

...
I paid 15 dollars for a box of 12 D40+ and that included shipping from China. Can you get seamless for that price?


http://colestt.com/balls.php

5.50 for a box of 6, 137$ for a gross (144 balls). The only place I know that sells it that cheap, though. If DHS puts a downward price pressure on balls market, that's good news in my book.



Yeah, you can easily get seamless balls at Baal's price. That said, ttnpp.com is selling the D40+ at 6 for $3.50 retail and 72 for $40. That is similar to some old celluloid ball prices and might lead to the death of the seamless ball.


Which I think is a likely outcome and would have somewhat mixed feelings about. The seamless ball is an excellent and very novel concept and for a period of time was the best plastic ball in the sport, at a time when major manufacturers were offering really crappy cellulose acetate balls that ITTF insisted on using anyway. The durability of seamless is still amazing by any standard, at least since we moved to 40 mm from 38 mm. On the other hand, more uniformity in 40+ balls would be good for the sport.

I enjoy playing with either seamless or Nittaku Premium but it is not real easy for me to transition from one to the other. However, I have no problem switching from Nittaku to D40+, even though they are not exactly the same.

By the way, I have not managed to break a D40+ yet. I am starting to think their durability is better than Nittaku and possibly approaches that of seamless. This will become more clear as time comes on.

_________________
Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2017, 21:43 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2616
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 234 times
Blade: Ovtcharov True Carbon FL
FH: Vega Pro 2.0 B
BH: Vega Pro 2.0 R
I looped one into the metal of the net post and have racket edged a few without breaking any. Even a seamless ball would have died in any of those circumstances.

I am now using it as my coaching and training ball to see how long it lasts.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 13:43 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 14:16
Posts: 311
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 39 times
Hey Alex, will you be getting these balls for the OOAK Trading Shop?

I'm currently buying the Nittaku 3* premium for the club, and they are costing a fortune. These sound like a great alternative considering the amount of balls I go through each month.

Cheers,
Greg

_________________
Perth Table Tennis Club


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 21:25 
Offline
Blockhead
Blockhead
User avatar

Joined: 07 Jan 2009, 19:20
Posts: 2069
Location: UK
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 130 times
Blade: Xiom Offensive S
FH: Tibhar MXP max
BH: TSP Regalis max
I've ordered 72 from TTNPP (who I swore I'd never order from again!) so hopefully will be able to give an opinion on the D40+ in a few weeks. $40 for 72, worth a try.

_________________
Back to double inverted Spring 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: