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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2017, 18:08 
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Kim Is My Shadow
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I'm looking to devise and formalise some tests for playing characteristics of rubbers. The idea is to use the same ball for all the tests in the coming years I intend to do to ensure consistency in results (other variables will be controlled as far as possible).

When I tested the plastic ball back in 2014 I bought over 60 Joola 40+ balls - I still have a lot of them left.

Since January 2016 any plastic balls made after this date are supposed to be subject to the same testing criteria as the old celluloid ball. The Joola+ I have won't meet these criteria so there is no point using them.

What suprises me is the continued reports, often varying about the same make of ball, about how they play - any ball made after January 2016 should not play that much differently to any other ball. This means choosing a plastic ball to use for my testing is complicated and I need to select only one ball.

I've spoken privately with friends here and the perception is that the DHS D40+ ball is a good option both in terms of the way it plays and that it highly unlikely DHS will change the production process further for this ball - ie it's the finished product for them. Before I invest a lot of time and money again testing equipment, does anyone have a viable suggestion about which is the best plastic ball to use as my ball of choice for testing rubbers and blades.

Please, I don't want this to be a debate about how rubbish the plastic balls are compared to celluloid. Plastic is what we have now and we aren't going back to celluloid so I have to work with plastic.

Thanks for any help or suggestions.

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2017, 18:46 
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I bought a second batch of the DHS D40+ balls, and so far have found them to be very consistent. Even though my own playing has been curtailed by injury, I gave some to my club, and a few other places. No one has complained about them, and I suspect that it will be the standard for the at least the next few years, in the major tour events. Can't think of a better testing option.

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2017, 19:46 
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Around here everyone uses the Nittaku 40+ Premium from Japan.

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2017, 19:54 
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Sounds good Debater, will be nice to see some data. Maybe you need to devise a test for for balls such as weight, circumference, hardness, grip etc so then if irrelevant as to the name or batch as long as your test balls are within certain parameters. Maybe though if the results are that sensitive to balls then the rubbers may not be that different.



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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2017, 07:38 
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I am sure that Baal will chime in here with his knowledge, but here is my 3 cents worth.

I am a new convert to the DHS D40+. It seems to be as good as any other. It doesn't seem to be too different to the Nittaku Premium 40+. I can also handle the XSF Seamless (in our case it is a Stag rebranding thereof) with very little change.

Having said that, you do need to nail down the variables while also making the results relevant.

As the DHS D40+ are used for the Pro Tour, and are also the cheapest of "the big 3", it would make some sense to use them.

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PostPosted: 30 Jul 2017, 07:32 
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DHS D40+ will become the standard before long although sold under different brands. Also one could say its playing properties lie between seamless and Nittaku Premium, but a bit closer to the later. Also cheapest option. Also consistent and round in my experience. So good for testing.

They are my favorite ball right now.

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PostPosted: 30 Jul 2017, 17:19 
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Yes I agree, the D40+ will be used by major sponsored events, and since it's cheap and durable it's likely to become very popular, so it's a good choice.

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PostPosted: 30 Jul 2017, 23:10 
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Kim Is My Shadow
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Thank you for the feedback. I'll go with the DHS D40+ ball.

Interesting suggestion Cobalt, but if I make the criteria for the balls too exact any testing will loose relevance when applied to club players who can't choose balls using the same criterion. For that reason I intend to repeat each rubber test a certain number of times and allow for some variance in results - just as the ITTF select a group of 24 balls from 30.

What I need to do next is try and source a sheet about 1m long and 30 cm wide of the same plastic used to produce the DHS D40+ ball. If I can get hold of that and glue it to a flat surface and then pivot it at an angle, I have the makings of an effective friction test / surface grip test.

I've tried contacting DHS in the past via their "contact" option on their website but never got a reply. Does anyone know which factory makes the DHS D40+ ball and a possible contact name?

Retriever, a lot of thought is going in to the proposed tests (rubber and blade tests) and the testing procedures which will make them relevant, consistent, fun and hopefully imformative too.

As a bit of fun here's a proof of concept video I made a few months ago around measuring "matt/gloss" status of rubbers. Interestingly the ITTF say in technical leaflet T4

"Matt" (Law 2.4.6) implies that the rubber will be considered to be unacceptable if the gloss of ”pimples-in” rubber or of either the base of ”pimples-out” rubber or the tops of the pimples are so high as to permit the contours of a light-source to be distinguished in its reflection. See B.1.4."



Not sure how a law can "imply something", but it does go on to say at point 6:
"Gloss (shininess). An accepttable surface is one whose measurement of 60 degrees specualra gloss using ASTM procedure D523 does not exceed 24%."

I'm wondering if changes in the "shininess" rating of a rubber could also be used to give an indication of wear or "time to change rubber/use by" date. Just a bit of fun at this stage. The device I used also measures dust ratings or cleanliness. I will use this feature at a future date to compare how effective commerically available clearners and plain water are at "cleaning rubbers". A step up on the "tuning fork" video I made a few years ago.

There are lot's of other tests and ideas currently being worked on but I'll discuss those in other threads when appropriate and it's dependent on testing devices being available.

Cheers

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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2017, 03:14 
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I always have loved your videos, Debater (however didn't know it was you!).

I'm still interested in the ratio of spin a rubber can create to the spin sensitivity. I remember some of your older tests touched on it.

Keep up the good work!


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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2017, 05:42 
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How much of an actual difference is there between the only two "good" two-piece balls i.e. the new DHS 40+ and the Nittaku 40+ Premium Japan, compared to the seamless Xushaofa/Nexy/Yinhe etc. balls?

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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2017, 07:38 
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MNNB wrote:
Quote:
How much of an actual difference is there between the only two "good" two-piece balls i.e. the new DHS 40+ and the Nittaku 40+ Premium Japan, compared to the seamless Xushaofa/Nexy/Yinhe etc. balls?


That is the 40+ thousand dollar question!

Anecdotally:
the seamless "looks like" it bounces higher
the NP40+ "seems" heavier but is only harder
the D40+ "feels" different in the hand to me

Presumably all are within the parameters set for balls by our wonderful governing body. I await testing of balls made public. As I said in the thread specifically about ITTF and the introduction of plastic balls, a lot of these things, including random testing failures are not exactly transparent to us players.

Hence the need for Debater to standardise his testing of rubbers by tying down the differences that may be due to the different characteristics of the balls made (not rebadged) by the different manufacturers.

If only it were not so.

PS. Like the new avatar, MNNB. A change is as good as a holiday.

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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2017, 13:30 
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OK, so there are three premium balls on the market with slightly different characteristics, groups of players seem to prefer one or another over the others. What's the alternative, though? Perhaps, to be even more "wonderful", ITTF should make only one type (or brand) of ball legal. Apart from restraint-of-trade issues (laws, lawyers, lawsuits), would this actually make everyone happy?? From what I've seen over the past couple years, I doubt it.. Nothing will. :lol:

To answer the question in the topic, though.. what would be most useful would be to use the ball which are used most frequently in tournaments nearest you. While this would seem to be the D40+, in the future you might see more seamless balls if more companies start sponsoring more contests - since DHS seems to have the large tournaments sewn up, perhaps the other companies selling seamless balls will concentrate on smaller tournaments and leagues.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2017, 14:35 
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I liked the spin reversal test video you once did ,it would be interesting to see it done with more ox lp`s to determine which is the king

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