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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 15:40 
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iskandar taib wrote:
CallmeX wrote:

Hi, for 3 star ITTF approved balls, what I could say is that, all balls are produced as per T3, a technical leaflet issued by ITTF, with certain tolerance ranges regarding each spec.

for training balls, there could be different quality categories depending on which quality one certain brand chooses and what customer group that they are targeting.

Remember, sometimes people name their product as "premium" based on comparison to their own other products.


I mean the 3 star balls. On the ITTF Website there are two 3 star seamless balls sold by Yinhe, the Yinhe *** and the Yinhe S40+ ***.

http://www.old.ittf.com/_front_page/itt ... gory=balls

Image

Image

What's the difference (other than the logo)? Or is there a difference at all?

There's only one Minkow 3 star seamless ball listed on ittf.com, but they have some labeled "Premium" on the box, these cost more.

Iskandar


Hi, Iskandar. I would answer this question if I work for Yinhe. I'll leave this question to Yinhe guys or to those who have experience of playing with both.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 16:18 
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As a supplier, we have to let these brands take the responsibility to do the publicity work, not steal the thunder. But we understand brands always have different types of equipment in their product lines, so, not all the good properties about seamless ball are spread among players.

This whole concept of being seamless is actually not about having a seam or not. Seamless means the shell thickness on each point of the ball sphere is even/equal, leading to perfect regularity of ball bounce-----means the bounce height would be more predictable and regular no matter which point of the ball touches the table.

That's why seamless balls could gain a favorable popularity in China soon after it was launched into the market. I couldn't speak for all players, pro or amateur. But we sell a lot of balls each year in China market, maybe sales quantity is hugely more than most of you expect.

Actually in some countries, including China, the majority of 3-star plastic balls in the market are produced by us, seamless.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 17:11 
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CallmeX wrote:
Hi, Iskandar. I would answer this question if I work for Yinhe. I'll leave this question to Yinhe guys or to those who have experience of playing with both.


But there's only one type of 3 star ball coming off your assembly line? Just the logos are different? I assume the logos are applied at your factory, not by Yinhe?

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 17:43 
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iskandar taib wrote:
CallmeX wrote:
Hi, Iskandar. I would answer this question if I work for Yinhe. I'll leave this question to Yinhe guys or to those who have experience of playing with both.


But there's only one type of 3 star ball coming off your assembly line? Just the logos are different? I assume the logos are applied at your factory, not by Yinhe?

Iskandar


I'm not authorized to disclose detailed info about other brands even if balls are from us.
I guess you'll have to buy each pack of them and find out.... :D :D


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 18:28 
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Thanx for your replies so far CMX, or should I say Agent X, :lol: , where does Minkow fit here, don't they produce XSF seamless balls?

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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 18:54 
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Robot Blocker wrote:
Thanx for your replies so far CMX, or should I say Agent X, :lol: , where does Minkow fit here, don't they produce XSF seamless balls?



Agent X sounds cool. :punch:

Interesting that people are curious about Minkow.
XSF balls are also produced by us. Minkow is one of our customers. ... Mr. Xu Shaofa is one of our shareholders. Another shareholder is the patent holder of seamless-ball technology.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 19:07 
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CallmeX wrote:
Robot Blocker wrote:
Thanx for your replies so far CMX, or should I say Agent X, :lol: , where does Minkow fit here, don't they produce XSF seamless balls?



Agent X sounds cool. :punch:

Interesting that people are curious about Minkow.
XSF balls are also produced by us. Minkow is one of our customers. ... Mr. Xu Shaofa is one of our shareholders. Another shareholder is the patent holder of seamless-ball technology.


Well rightly or wrongly, it has always been a belief / misconstrued info on here that Minkow produced all seamless only, which is why your appearance on here with relevant info comes to us surprisingly, somewhat a few years late in ball discussions, of course if the ITTF weren't a secretive organisation and was more transparent then us customers would know what we are buying and from whom!! :swear: :@

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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 19:15 
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Again my post is not in an attempt to claim who is the producer. And this is not secret either to those in table tennis business. It's just players or some companies having confusion/curiosity about this.

Back to my topic.
at Men Team Final at 2016/2017 German League, the official ball is also seamless ball, Joola Flash.
So is the Cup.
it's one of the most important men team TT events in Germany. So, I wouldn't agree if anybody says seamless ball is not used at pro events or top events.
For some countries, the official ball for national association is seamless ball too. Just under different brand names.

There're also other national-level or regional-level events using seamless ball as competition ball, like in India, Indonesia, England......lots that I'm not even aware of, because sponsorship are done by brands, not by us directly.

We much appreciate these kind words said about seamless balls on this forum. It is also due to these support from players (grassroots or pro) who make us survive and thrive.

For suggestions on improving our ball's quality, I've also kept in mind and would pass to our technical guys.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 20:05 
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CallmeX wrote:
Again my post is not in an attempt to claim who is the producer. And this is not secret either to those in table tennis business. It's just players or some companies having confusion/curiosity about this.

Back to my topic.
at Men Team Final at 2016/2017 German League, the official ball is also seamless ball, Joola Flash.
So is the Cup.
it's one of the most important men team TT events in Germany. So, I wouldn't agree if anybody says seamless ball is not used at pro events or top events.
For some countries, the official ball for national association is seamless ball too. Just under different brand names.

There're also other national-level or regional-level events using seamless ball as competition ball, like in India, Indonesia, England......lots that I'm not even aware of, because sponsorship are done by brands, not by us directly.

We much appreciate these kind words said about seamless balls on this forum. It is also due to these support from players (grassroots or pro) who make us survive and thrive.

For suggestions on improving our ball's quality, I've also kept in mind and would pass to our technical guys.


Mmmmm, not sure you chose to not answer my last post or not!!

However, obviously seamless balls got a real lead into the market and rightly so, FWIW, the weight differences combined with the hardness of the balls did make a huge difference to "touch" and lp players, is it possible to make the balls less hard and more flexible?

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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 21:12 
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There's misinterpretation regarding weight "difference".
In technical leaflet for the ball, the weight is specified at 2.7g.
But in physics, no matter it's length or weight or diameter, it's impossible to define it with a definite specific figure due to errors caused by measure instrument or production precision. That's why a "tolerance range" is introduced, not just for weight, but also for ball diameter, hardness etc....This "tolerance" exists in every area in life. No figure is definite.

So, for weight, it is specified at 2.7g, the tolerance range is 2.67g to 2.77g.
I wouldn't say two types of ITTF approved balls have difference in weight......all ITTF approved balls should be within the tolerance range.

I agree with some posts saying current balls are approaching to a stage that general performance is going in the same direction and becoming similar enough.

I'm happy for the improvement done by other manufacturers. We may be rivals when it comes to business. But only when this sports could gain more popularity and receive less critics, could all of us benefit in a long run.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 21:38 
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And....."is it possible to make the balls less hard and more flexible?"

I think it is commonly felt that the biggest difference between cell and plastic is the hardness, necessitating a huge change in technique and often equipment, i don't recall this being necessary when we went from 38 to 40mm, , was this deliberate and as you say you are seeking constructive feedback to the manufacturer, can it be addressed at all?

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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 22:16 
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regarding hardness, it's same as weight, it has been defined with a specification in technical leaflet. We are not free to make balls with any desired specs. If need ITTF approval? then produce as per the specs in technical leaflet.
"flexible", not sure I understand what it means.....

I'm aware that some people have different opinions after new material ball is introduced and replace celluloid balls gradually. Yet, this is just the normal trend in every industry: dangerous material is replaced with safe ones.

The reason why celluloid ball production is gradually stopping, is not just due to the market force. It's also due to the tightened safety control/regulation posed by Chinese government on all factories, not just table tennis, every industry.... You may still remember the awful explosion accident happened at Tianjin port (China) not long ago (2015?)....The introduction of plastic balls coincides in the tightened safety control on factories......

Speaking of adapting to new material balls, trust me, rubber/blade manufacturers are trying to modify their products, to cope with the non-celluloid balls.

I understand another complaint to non-celluloid balls is towards a lack of ITTF approved orange balls. This should not be an issue in terms of technique/process. You'd have orange balls sooner or later.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 22:47 
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For every "STAG" "Xuxaofa" "SANWEI" "Yinhe" "Nittaku" "YASAKA" "Butterfly" "DHS" 40+ plastic balls how can you ensure that :-

1. Every plastic material is uniformly strong
2. plastic material is exact thickness
3. plastic material is more "elastic" ? does not deform too easily and returns to its original shape quickly.
4. Plastic material has similar properties to old celluloid material ?

Reason I ask is because as a player following issues are:

A. Plastic balls have uneven bounce.
B. Plastic balls do not load spin consistently.
C. Plastic ball easily breaks even within 1 session.
D. Plastic ball costs waaay more than the old celluloid ball.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 23:02 
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man_iii wrote:
For every "STAG" "Xuxaofa" "SANWEI" "Yinhe" "Nittaku" "YASAKA" "Butterfly" "DHS" 40+ plastic balls how can you ensure that :-

1. Every plastic material is uniformly strong
2. plastic material is exact thickness
3. plastic material is more "elastic" ? does not deform too easily and returns to its original shape quickly.
4. Plastic material has similar properties to old celluloid material ?

Reason I ask is because as a player following issues are:

A. Plastic balls have uneven bounce.
B. Plastic balls do not load spin consistently.
C. Plastic ball easily breaks even within 1 session.
D. Plastic ball costs waaay more than the old celluloid ball.

Hi, Nittaku, Butterfly, DHS 40+ are not produced by us. So I would only answer from my own side for seamless balls. (yasaka also has seam balls, and seamless balls.)
For a 3-star seamless ball,
hardness is checked at random points on the sphere to get a "pass" during a test. That means, if a seamless ball passed ITTF hardness test, it means most likely all points on the sphere have even hardness. (as test points are chosen randomly, again this test is for seamless ball)
Besides hardness, hardness uniformity is also tested to ensure hardness difference among different points on the ball is controlled to a certain range. (this is also specified in technical leaflet from ITTF).
"plastic ball" is a vague name. I couldn't answer for other balls. For us, durable and being playable are two of good qualities about seamless ball.
And price of seamless ball is generally being regulated at the moderately acceptable level.
The even shell thickness ensures consistence of ball performance.


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 00:46 
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A. Plastic balls have uneven bounce.
B. Plastic balls do not load spin consistently.

Those points above are still pertinent still some 3 seasons later i'm afraid!! :(

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