OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Good day,

after lurking around on the forums for quite a while i decided to chime in with my first post.
I am currently considering switching material since i recently picked up the sport again after a 2 year break and dont feel comfortable with my current setup anymore, which is

Hexer ( 1.9 ) on FH | Andro Super Core Cell OFF- Blade| Xiom Vega Europe ( 1.8 ) on BH

at the last practice i fortunately had the chance to try out a friend's TBS with two T05s in 1.9 each, and i sorta liked the combination a lot. The only issue that i ran into was that the rubbers felt so spin sensitive at times that i had a hard time returning a short ball. I'm not too sure whether its the setup that is sensitive to incoming spin by nature or simply me not being used to it. Thoughts on that?

Now since that was pretty much the only complaint i could come up with after first tryouts i figured that the T80 might be a suitable choice for my play that is generally a 3-5-attack style. In several reviews I have read that the T80 is supposedly less sensitive on chops than T05 - can others confirm this?

Lastly, i was not really able to find a clear differentiation between the TBS and the Maze OFF. Can anybody who played both blades give me/us some input as to what exactly the differences are?

Thanks in advance,
Tryzer

Welcome to the forum Tryzer!

Yes T80 is quite similar to T05, and is definitely easier and less sensitive for the short game.

I'm not sure about the blade comparison.. I would expect the TBS to be a little stiffer, but I'll let others who have tried both tell you more.

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I've used both the TBS and the MM.
TBS felt a shade heavier and crisper than the MM. Bit more flex in the MM (in line with Haggisv observation)
Blades were not tried out back to back .
TBS had new T05s whilst the MM had chinese tenergies - supposedly really good copies - must ask where they came from
MM was several years old and is being used by a top female vet who recently won the over 60s doubles world championship. A MM is also used by a player from NI who has been ear marked to represent the UK in the next Olympics.
Outer piles on the MM is Limba whilst on the TBS it's Koto.
I was going to say that the koto outer pile tends to be used by the top pros and the limba gives better feel. But clearly the MM from the examples above is clearly a competitive blade.
Reckon a MM will weight 85 grams whilst a TBS will be 90 grams.
In summary there would be more control with the MM but less speed than the TBS. Unsure about the spin.
On the Tenergies - I wasn't mad about the T80 after the T05 and have got to like the T05FX on the BH. A club mate really likes his T80FX on the BH and in a 1.9 thickness cut for his OSP blade was only 45 grams. It has the same hardness rating as your XVE.
On the FH I've had trouble controlling a max red T05 in rallies and I'm now using a discontinued Tibhar 1Q XD but would be curious about trying out the FastArc G1 next. Or maybe the C1 which seems to sit between the G1 & S1. Funnily enough I've found that a black max tenergy has more control than a max red tenergy. 1.9 is easier than a max but doesn't loop as well & doesn't seem to last as long.

The differences between T05/80 and TBS/MM are pretty small. Small diffs are generally relevant to two player types for different reasons: those with poor form/flexibility where the diff manifests itself at the edge of their adaptability; and fairly high level play where even minute variances become significant.

That said, all tenergies have basically same compound and all but T25 have similar pip geometry, so for all but the heaviest of pushes they're largely fungible. It's a very elastic rubber without much surface tack so push accordingly.

The MM and TBS are both variations of the Viscaria which is itself an evolution of some older Buttfly Arylate-mix composite (keyshot?). Frankly the minor variations in their handle shape is more important than how they vary elsewhere.

My feeling is that if you are still at a stage where you still have issues with incoming spin then you probably shouldn't be getting a fast blade. Remember that just about every fast blade feels great when you first hit with it. It is usually when you start to do the nitty gritty and tricky stuff that you realize the shortcomings - 'you drive for show and return serve for dough'.

In regads to rubbers I doubt T80 will make much difference. If money is no option then any Tenergy should be fine but I would think many good quality cheaper rubbers will also do the job for now.

Main difference between a T05 and a T80 is the arc and on the FH at full belt it can make the difference between balls landing on the table or not. This is more the case with a stiff blade which the TBS & the MM would not be the case. Ex club mate a division 4 player preferred.playing his FX-P on the FH leaving the T80 on the BH and that was on both a Donic balsa blade & a SZLC.
One of the drawbacks of Arylate is the numbness and the use of Koto outer pile on the TBS compounds this. Another blade worth considering is the Innerforce ALC which has 2 piles of Limba so the carbon is only engaged on harder hits. This blade is used by Liam Pitchford.
Yinhe / Galaxy have cheaper equivalents in their V14 / V15 / V16 models and having tried the V14 is was very nice and easy to use with a xiom vega pro on the FH. The V16 is supposedly equivalent to the MM. Limited on the choice of handles with only a master shape. There blades are about €25-€30.
There are some very decent all wood blades that could be considered. if you have the budget the likes of the Nittaku Violin or Acoustic are highly though of with the Violin pairing better with harder rubbers.
Choice of an all wood blade would warrant another thread.

A beginner looking to improve very quickly through mechanical advantages (ie topspin) should ideally be using pretty slow stuff so that faster/efficient swings necessary to achieve this are possible without absolute physical precision (the sort that can take many many hours to develop unless naturally gifted).

A fast/spinny rubber isn't as bad as a fast blade in that regard, but Tenergy is pretty damn fast even on a slowish blade.

OTOH for those not looking to improve much it doesn't matter what is used. I'm often amazed at how good of a touch some players develop with fast bats over decades in lower leagues.

Firstly thanks for all the replies.



Dont get me wrong, I am not looking for a setup that is beginner friendly and supports the learning stage of different strokes - I merely restarted playing tabletennis after a 2 year break and the technique is still there, so thats not my main concern.

After talking to a couple guys from my club I am more and more tending towards trying out a MM with two T80s and see how it will go from there.

Greetings,
Tryzer

> Dont get me wrong, I am not looking for a setup that is beginner friendly and supports the learning stage of different strokes - I merely restarted playing tabletennis after a 2 year break and the technique is still there, so thats not my main concern.

Yes, I see that in your OP. To clarify I was just speaking generally, but also in general this applies to most folks looking to improve quickly. Very few players at intermed or less levels have proper power shots. Also, if your technique is there, it really matters very little which Tenergy you use.

I agree with all of this. I recently switched from T80BH/T05 FH to T05 on both sides. Main reason was because I needed new rubber and my usual local source was out of T80. So I bought two T05s instead and imagined that I was playing better. I was willing to do that because I had noticed for a long time when coaching that when I am blocking to the same place every time to help someone groove a stroke, I was a lot more stead with the T05. Of course, that was must one aspect of play, and not one that is very relevant to actual game play. But the experience did suggest that it was not worth waiting for the new T80 when she had a nice black T05 right there for a good price. T05 does throw a little higher and I like that for opening third balls. Or maybe it doesn't matter and I am just liking new rubber better than old. Or maybe it has something to do with plastic balls. Or maybe it is such a subtle change on BH side it doesn't matter all that much. (I definitely do not like T80 on my FH though). I am not convinced that T80 was less sensitive than spin than T05. I have never played with any Tenergies in anything less than the max thickness and I could imagine that the slight differences in the pip shape/spacing could make more of a difference with thinner sponge. In general though, as always, the only way to know if you like something is to try it.

I very much have come to agree with the handle shape comment by Agent HEX (and also add the weight of the handle). I actually think the handle is a very large and very much under-appreciated aspect of how blades play in general. With the various Btfly ALC blades you really get to see it in action because they make so many blades where the handle shape and material is the main thing that is different. People say these blades are mostly the same and only thing different is handle. I now say, true more or less, but don't underestimate the effect of the handle.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

> In general though, as always, the only way to know if you like something is to try it.

This is true in large part due to the importance of psychological effect in sports. If you like some setup better, even if only due to some perceptual bias, you'll likely play better and it has nothing to do with any objective performance of the setup. Aka the EJ new blade effect. There's often no rational reasoning behind it, so just embrace it. But it can be misleading when subjective evaluations of fairly minor diffs are written & read without this context.

The handle shape is a good example. There's clearly no "right" handle shape given differing hand shapes, and if each person adjusts their grip somewhat various shapes can work. But if a handle just feels good, just go with that. Or just soften the grip, move the fingers around a bit, and that'll probably work just a well after getting used to it. However if you tell yourself a certain workable shape is uncomfortable then will be your excuse even if you do poorly due to other factors, and that wears on your mind. Often in that case it's better to move on rather than force the issue.

Yes, all true. My only point is that experiencing the equipment in question, even if it's just for a couple of minutes, is better than basing a decision on stuff you've read on the internet.

It's better, but as you say, it's still not perfect. I used to think the Viscaria handle was too small until Butterfly finally made a blade with essentially the same ALC construction and the perfect handle -- exactly what I had always wanted! (I actually did feel the handle before buying and it seemed absolutely perfect). So I bought two (this is the ZJK-ALC, the new version, not the blue dragon one). And then I discovered that having played with the Viscaria for so many years, I had either gotten used to it, or more likely, it was always just fine. Anyway, the point is, that I still use my favorite Viscaria. The ZJK-ALC is an excellent blade, though. I am sure I could get used to it. Right now I have two sitting in a drawer collecting dust. What I thought would be the best handle, and what felt best in my hand, was not quite as good for me when I really needed a soft touch. I'm not sure what this means, other than there is a lot to be said for spending years getting accustomed to a single type of setup.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

> Yes, all true. My only point is that experiencing the equipment in question, even if it's just for a couple of minutes, is better than basing a decision on stuff you've read on the internet.


No prob.
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As another example of why which Tenergy doesn't matter much, recall back in the day people used speed glue, and better players often used quite a bit of it.

The handling characteristics of a glued blade can change more in the course of an afternoon more than the difference between most tenergies (as would old vs new tenergy). So if they couldn't play with 05 during prime hours and slightly less spinny or throwy one later they'd be screwed.

I hadn't really given that much thought since it's been awhile, but i remember the hell of a "bad glue day" very well. When the gluing for whatever reason didn't give the usual good effect and the thing just didn't play well. The one thing I like about the "post-glue" era is the relative stability of the setup, not having to smell my own and everybody else's glue, also being able to just pull out my blade and play. I would prefer to not pay 65 USD, and with a strong speed glue even pretty bad rubber could play well. I was a big fan of Bryce but Speedy Spin was just as good and cheaper so at one point I switched to that. Also sometimes used Mark V. Even with the price, I'm not sure I'd go back to that, and also, speed gluing reduced rubber lifetime a great deal.

I was pretty unhappy at the time but I don't think much about it anymore. I was pretty unhappy about plastic balls, more recently, until I started with the XSF seamless balls, and those are fine.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH