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PostPosted: 06 Sep 2015, 19:07 
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My 5 Cent advice
Keep your old blade. If the person in the shop destroys the blade, he doesn' t know his job. Currently there are more and more blades being released, to mimic the classic design of your blade, because it works [WHITE SMILING FACE]


As for the rubbers. You come from a very classic setup. That also implies, that your current techniques are also classic (usually long motion, more body and arm work). These motions don't go too well with modern, hard tensor rubbers (like the S1 Turbo).
2 options in my opinion:
Stay classic and start with rubbers like Donic Vario. Yasaka Mark V alike (2mm)
Go modern, with modest tensor rubbers like the Andro Hexer Duro, Tibhar Aurus Soft ( or even softer Aurus Sound) alike. But then use only 1.8 mm.

I would go modern, but it depends on how much you want to adapt new techniques.

Rg
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PostPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 02:09 
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Alx wrote:
Just a little piece of advice.
Pay attention to the balance of the bat! Head heavy bat will cause tension in the wrist. You might be comfortable even with heavier blade but only in case when balance is not head heavy.
In your case my suggestion will be:
1. Choose rubbers that suit your style and which are on the lighter side (I would exclude Evolution series, they are quite heavy)
2. Try them on your current blade. If you're comfortable with this setup- then it's done
3. If no- then change your blade to the new one which is less head heavy. Just some hints- you need light head and not overly light handle.
So avoid hollow handles (wrb, senso series etc) and handles with balsa inserts.
You might appreciate blade with small head sizes. Smaller head size makes less weight both for rubbers and for head itself. If I'm not mistaken current dimensions of your blade is 157*151 mm. You can get 155*150 for example or less. Andro blades usually have small head size. As well as Adidas blades and some models from Tibhar.


It is interesting, though, that so many manufacturers go to great lengths to hollow out handles, and they then go out of their way to promote them as a great feature! I know of at least one poster here who went the other way, and modifies his blades by adding a counterweight to the end of the handle - the theory is that it serves as a "counterweight" to the head of the blade and makes the bat easier to rotate around the wrist. I disagree with this analysis because what matters isn't the balance point, it's the rotational inertia (more properly, the "moment of inertia") of the bat. If you add weight to rotational center (i.e. about where the wrist rotates) it doesn't add to the moment of inertia, but if you add a long, heavy handle that sticks out past the wrist, you do. Imagine a dumbbell - if you try twisting it around by gripping it in the middle and using your wrist, it takes some effort to do so, even though the balance point is exactly in the middle. Remove one of the weights at the end and it is actually easier to twist it around because you've halved the moment of inertia (even though you now have to use some effort to keep the handle horizontal - rackets aren't as heavy, though).

Aside from rotation about the wrist, you're also swinging the bat around your elbow and around your shoulder, so any extra weight (no matter what it does to the center of gravity of the blade) will make the bat harder to swing. Rotation about the wrist matters most when serving and with such shots as the heavy push, when you're using the wrist to accelerate the bat. In a loop or topspin drive, if you're rotating the bat around the wrist, it's mainly passive, the snap is mainly momentum of the blade head with a loose wrist, a heavy blade head would help here, too. Come to think of it, with serves (if you're been following Brett Clarke's videos), the snap is at the wrist but the power actually comes from the (very short) forearm snap, not as much from the wrist muscles, and a top-heavy bat would help there, too. My feeling is that a lighter racket overall would help, even if this lighter racket has a center of gravity (i.e. balance point) closer to the tip. Lighter rackets will tend to have CGs closer to the tip because the rubber weight makes up a larger proportion of the total weight.

Rubbers? Well, try Tensors if you must but try some cheap Chinese first! :lol: If it's only going to cost you $10-15 (for two sheets) to try, why not?

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 19:56 
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Let me clarify my position about head-heavy blades and the wrist issues.
Table tennis bat is a lever for wrist's muscles and joint. So we must put into consideration not only its overall weight but weight center as well. Just a small experiment. Take a table tennis bat and try to hold to in two different ways:
1. holding by the handle
2. holding by its head
You'll definetly observe that with the latter your wrist will be more relaxed.
So even just holding in game head heavy bat will cause more tension in the wrist. And to execute wrist movement for a shot you need to put more efforts to start your wrist with the bat to move and afterwards more efforts to stop wrist movement.
Surely light handle systems allow more momentum when swinging due to head heavy balance. But it's mechanics so if you gain something you'll lose something too.
General wisdom is that head heavy bats give more power to your shots and are better for power strokes (smashes, loops). In turn handle heavy bats give you more feel and touch and are better for blocks and defensive shots.
20thcentury isn't two-wings attacker (attack on FH only and defensive game on BH if I understood correctly) so benefit of head heavy bat apart from wrist issues is questionable.

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Setup 1: custom 7ply blade FH: 729 Legend 105 BH: 729 563
Setup 2: custom 7ply blade FH: 729 Dr Evil BH: 729 Dr Evil


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PostPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 20:11 
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20thcentury wrote:
Thanks very much for the advice alx. Putting some of the advice together, perhaps I should get a light fast rubber for the forehand (Tenergy 64 FX maybe, S1 Turbo or one of the others suggested above?) and a light defensive rubber for the backhand (such as one suggested above).

It seems (if I can't keep my existing blade) that I should get a well-balanced blade, such as the newer extra or a lighter/smaller blade with a lighter head than handle.

Again following iskandar taib's logic, I may want to go with a fast blade too. I was looking at teessport.com and you can list blades by weight. A number of blades are listed as being 8-9.25 for speed and under 80 g, such as Adidas Synchro Plus ALL+ Table Tennis (67 g), Adidas Challenge Light ALL Table Tennis (72 g), and Donic Ovtcharov Feat OFF Table Tennis (75 g). Any thoughts on these?


As for FH rubber- I would exclude S1 Turbo as well as all hard-sponged rubbers (I mean traditional Chinese hard-sponged tacky rubbers, Tenergy series (not FX), ESN rubbers with hardness 45 or more degrees). As a rule- the harder the sponge the heavier rubber is. Also to use benefits of hard rubbers one should execute powerful strokes. Will you be able to do it with your wrist problems?
I like the advice given by vossi39. Also I'd like to add Acuda S2 to the list. It's a great rubber!

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Setup 1: custom 7ply blade FH: 729 Legend 105 BH: 729 563
Setup 2: custom 7ply blade FH: 729 Dr Evil BH: 729 Dr Evil


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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 12:07 
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20thcentury wrote:
Thanks very much for the advice alx. Putting some of the advice together, perhaps I should get a light fast rubber for the forehand (Tenergy 64 FX maybe, S1 Turbo or one of the others suggested above?) and a light defensive rubber for the backhand (such as one suggested above).

It seems (if I can't keep my existing blade) that I should get a well-balanced blade, such as the newer extra or a lighter/smaller blade with a lighter head than handle.

Again following iskandar taib's logic, I may want to go with a fast blade too. I was looking at teessport.com and you can list blades by weight. A number of blades are listed as being 8-9.25 for speed and under 80 g, such as Adidas Synchro Plus ALL+ Table Tennis (67 g), Adidas Challenge Light ALL Table Tennis (72 g), and Donic Ovtcharov Feat OFF Table Tennis (75 g). Any thoughts on these?


Also check out Chinese blades. In particular, those made by Yinhe, and among those, the N11. They only cost $12 including shipping, so there's not much to lose even if you end up not using it. The three I have are all around 80g, and you can ask Eacheng to send the lightest one in stock. Yinhe also has balsa blades (T10, T11) which are light but those are known to be real rockets, best used for close-to-the-table hitting.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 19:04 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Also check out Chinese blades. In particular, those made by Yinhe, and among those, the N11. They only cost $12 including shipping, so there's not much to lose even if you end up not using it.

Iskandar


Sorry for off-topic, but Iskandar, you should definetly put recommendation of Yinhe N11 blade to your signature and end all your messages with P.S. "Attention! Please read my signature!". :lol: :) You'll save a lot of time ;)

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Setup 1: custom 7ply blade FH: 729 Legend 105 BH: 729 563
Setup 2: custom 7ply blade FH: 729 Dr Evil BH: 729 Dr Evil


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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 20:12 
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Blade: Zhang Jike SZLC
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Blk
BH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Red
iskandar taib wrote:
... I know of at least one poster here who went the other way, and modifies his blades by adding a counterweight to the end of the handle....
Iskandar


Attached is a picture of what I did to a TB ALC to balance the weight of the setup. Added a little weight to setup but made it much more balanced. The blade was 85 grams. Originally the setup was 187 grams but managed to take 10 grams off it (removing layers of glue) but added 3 back on with the rim tape and half a leather wrap. Without the wrap the setup felt head heavy. In addition the guy who bought the setup off me had a preference for flared handles so adding the wrap to a straight handle made it a lot more comfortable.


Attachments:
TB alc.jpg
TB alc.jpg [ 89.73 KiB | Viewed 684 times ]


Last edited by Multispoke on 08 Sep 2015, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 20:25 
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Blade: Zhang Jike SZLC
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Blk
BH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Red
Alx wrote:
As for FH rubber- I would exclude S1 Turbo as well as all hard-sponged rubbers (I mean traditional Chinese hard-sponged tacky rubbers, Tenergy series (not FX), ESN rubbers with hardness 45 or more degrees). As a rule- the harder the sponge the heavier rubber is. Also to use benefits of hard rubbers one should execute powerful strokes. Will you be able to do it with your wrist problems?
I like the advice given by vossi39. Also I'd like to add Acuda S2 to the list. It's a great rubber!


S1 turbo is if memory serves me correctly is around 45 degrees. Some juniors are now changing their recommended FH S1 rubber to it because it's a little softer.
A guy in the club got a Nittaku Violin with a S1 turbo and a S2 rubber and the S2 was heavier. S2 was around 68-69 grams uncut whilst the S1 turbo was lighter - I think it was around 67 grams. Can't really explain it since I would agree with the rule of thumb that the harder the sponge the heavier the weight.
Also 20th Century used a meaty 5 ply blade with a H3 neo and played surprisingly well with it. With a normal setup of a fast FH rubber he was sending them long with the slower Chinese tacky setup worked well for him but it may have paid the price later on with soreness.

On the topic of light decent rubbers Haggisv started a thread on this recently and the Tibhar Genius was put forward. A BH rubber that was used a lot by some of our top players was the Donic Coppa X1 Gold with a little booster to soften the sponge a bit. This was relatively light and was used the balance what was deemed a heavy rubber a T05. Now new generation rubbers make the T05 look light at a cut weight of around 48-50 grams.


Last edited by Multispoke on 08 Sep 2015, 21:10, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 20:35 
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Blade: Zhang Jike SZLC
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Blk
BH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Red
iskandar taib wrote:
Also check out Chinese blades. In particular, those made by Yinhe, and among those, the N11. They only cost $12 including shipping, so there's not much to lose even if you end up not using it. The three I have are all around 80g, and you can ask Eacheng to send the lightest one in stock. Yinhe also has balsa blades (T10, T11) which are light but those are known to be real rockets, best used for close-to-the-table hitting.


Have you looked at the Yinhe/ Galaxy Earth-4 ?
My experience of light fast blades isn't favourable.
Distinctly remember trying out a Butterfly Photino that weighed 82 grams and compared to another blade a Butterfly Amultart at 88 grams the latter was much nicer to play with.
Personally if I was 20thCentury I would prefer to stick with a blade weight of 83-85 grams and opt for lighter rubbers to save on weight.
Thinking of what 5 ply blade I would like - the Nittaku Violin comes to mind. Although at just under a €100 from tt-japan price is steep. One can be got from Aliexpress but it would most likely be fake. Prefer to opt for a something similar in Galaxy/Yinhe.

P.S. The Nittaku Violin was used by possibly our most successful pro / amateur player who used it initially with a MX-P and a X1 gold and then changed the FH rubber to a T05. Recently got a new sponsor and is now using Tibhar. He got rid of the Nittaku Violin because he said that the handle was a little small. Unsure if he had the 'big' handled version or the standard smaller one that you typically get.


Last edited by Multispoke on 08 Sep 2015, 21:18, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 20:57 
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Blade: Zhang Jike SZLC
FH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Blk
BH: Tenergy 05 2.1 Red
20thcentury wrote:
Thanks very much for the advice alx. Putting some of the advice together, perhaps I should get a light fast rubber for the forehand (Tenergy 64 FX maybe, S1 Turbo or one of the others suggested above?) and a light defensive rubber for the backhand (such as one suggested above).

It seems (if I can't keep my existing blade) that I should get a well-balanced blade, such as the newer extra or a lighter/smaller blade with a lighter head than handle.

Again following iskandar taib's logic, I may want to go with a fast blade too. I was looking at teessport.com and you can list blades by weight. A number of blades are listed as being 8-9.25 for speed and under 80 g, such as Adidas Synchro Plus ALL+ Table Tennis (67 g), Adidas Challenge Light ALL Table Tennis (72 g), and Donic Ovtcharov Feat OFF Table Tennis (75 g). Any thoughts on these?


An equivalent rubber to the Tenergy 64FX is the Joola X-Plode Sensitive. Can be got for around €36 locally as opposed to paying €63+. May not last as long but would be a little lighter. Would prefer to change my original recommendation of Super Defence to this. Recently played with a fast FH rubber and a Super Defence 1.5 and didn't like the slowness of the BH rubber.

Also I got my original recommendation wrong since I was aiming for a 175 gram setup with a slow BH rubber. This was incorrect. I had not believed that you current setup was 150 gram so I should have aimed for an overall lighter setup.

After your 'success' with the H3 neo would be inclined to go with the following...

FH 729 Battle II
BH X-Plode sensitive or your old reliable Tackiness D
Nittaku Violin or Yinhe / Galaxy Earth-4 - basically a looper's blade with a little flex

An alternative to a tacky FH rubber would be one of the following: Tibhar Genius, Omega V Europe 1.9, S1t (but not on a stiff blade since it's a medium-low throw)

Also for the benefit of the forum 20th Century's BH will be good - it was just with the lack of practice he wasn't really using it. Would not like to cripple the development of it with too slow a rubber relative to his FH.

P.S. Have a Primorac EX if you want to try it out. Can stick some old thin tenergies on it with a little booster to give it a little life or a newly cut Friendship LKT Pro XP - expect that I could get the weight down to 170 grams but it may still not be light enough.

P.P.S. Another option is to do some gym workouts so that you can handle a normal 180 gram setup. :)


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 01:03 
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Thanks everyone for the advice. I can't believe it's been 3 years since I started this thread because that's the length of my latest break from table-tennis apart from the odd hit with family/friends. Apologies all for the radio silence. I expected to have bought a bat and posted the results a lot sooner. However, it took me a lot longer to feel fit enough to return to the table. But finally, I did.

vossi39 wrote:
My 5 Cent advice
Keep your old blade. If the person in the shop destroys the blade, he doesn' t know his job. Currently there are more and more blades being released, to mimic the classic design of your blade, because it works [WHITE SMILING FACE]


As for the rubbers. You come from a very classic setup. That also implies, that your current techniques are also classic (usually long motion, more body and arm work). These motions don't go too well with modern, hard tensor rubbers (like the S1 Turbo).
2 options in my opinion:
Stay classic and start with rubbers like Donic Vario. Yasaka Mark V alike (2mm)
Go modern, with modest tensor rubbers like the Andro Hexer Duro, Tibhar Aurus Soft ( or even softer Aurus Sound) alike. But then use only 1.8 mm.

I would go modern, but it depends on how much you want to adapt new techniques.


Unfortunately, I couldn't use my old blade because I seem to have lost the bat! I considered all the advice and did more research on blade and rubber weights. In the end, I decided to go for a light total weight and to stay classic rather than go modern - for now, at least. Maybe next time I might try tensors. :)

I had this bat made up:

Andro Super Core CL OFF Table Tennis Blade
· Handle Type: Anatomic

Donic Slice 40 CD Table Tennis Rubber
· Sponge Thickness: 1.5, Colour: Black

Donic Vario Big Slam Table Tennis Rubber
· Sponge Thickness: 1.8, Colour: Red

Total weight according to my kitchen scales: 144g

Multispoke wrote:
Another option is to do some gym workouts so that you can handle a normal 180 gram setup. :)


I also have been doing some workouts, you'll be glad to hear Multispoke, and returned to your club again a few times last month. I'm happy with the results so far: the bat has been playing increasingly well and my wrists and shoulder have been holding up. Fingers crossed that will continue. Thanks everybody again.

Attachment:
new bat.jpg
new bat.jpg [ 127.1 KiB | Viewed 50 times ]


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