OOAK Table Tennis Forum

A player I know was trying to convince me that one of the brands that gets their rubbers made by ESN, gets higher quality rubbers than that of the other brands.

To me this makes no economic sense, for ESN to have different quality ranges in their rubbers, so I don't believe this is the case. I suspect this is simply a rumour started by either the manufacturer or a distributor of this brand, to try and push their brand over others.
Although I do believe ESN makes some different ranges of rubbers (they all have some budget rubbers for example which are of lower quality), I don't believe there would be any difference in quality in their latest generation of Tensors for example.

What are your thoughts?

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i've always think that those rubber are design and engineered at their parent company but manufactured by ESN..as for quality, i can't find any difference between the sheet that i've bought (nittaku, tibhar and xiom), they all look high quality..the difference i noticed is durability, not as sturdy as japanese made rubber.

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Still Missing the Speed Glue

Not as sturdy? Why, what happens to them? Top sheet tears? Boosting wears off? Or they just wear out faster?

Iskandar

From an engineering/chemistry perspective, I would think that different types of rubber compositions have different thresholds for things like durability, grip, catapult. So we can be sure that there are differences between rubbers based on the desired end-product. Whether "Good" or "Bad" is relative.

Knowing there are differences, it is guaranteed that durability will vary if you want specific performance elements (speed/spin/etc).

From a human factors perspectives, we will perceive "quality" based on our biases and expectations. We like very grippy soft rubbers but will complain when they are more brittle. Or we like hard sponges with a softer high catapult topsheet, which usually means taller pips. Taller pips usually means they are easier to break.

I'm with what's been said above, I doubt the factory has differing QC thresholds for the product, but rather there is simply a difference in all of these elements because different end-products require different rubber compositions and different architecture. The humans decide if it's poor quality based on experience...which is relative.

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I wouldn't really be that surprised if there were different levels of guaranteed tolerances that a company can pay for.

for example, does anyone recall 10-20 years ago when we were told that top players picked rubbers cut from the centre of the sponge loaf, because the ones towards the edge were different?

would be interesting to know if the QC tolerances on the high volume, popular rubbers are tighter than on the low volume legacy stuff. Or if the volume makes it less likely to get something bad.

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Chasse Patate

The difference in weight from sheet to sheet is pretty eye-opening, you see it in cheap Chinese rubbers but you also see it in Tenergy. And you have web sites selling "professional versions" of Tenergy, too.

Iskandar

Did anyone actually notice any difference between sheets of differing weight?

I mean, i usually just figured i was playing like crap, but maybe I should have been blaming the rubber

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Chasse Patate

I don't know if overly heavy or light sheets play any better or worse but they do make the racket heavier or lighter. Sometimes the differences between sheets are HUGE. Like a 12 gram difference between the lightest and heaviest sheet in a batch of 10 sheets of Corbor.

And if the manufacturer isn't able to control the weight of the sheets that tells me they aren't able to control the mixing and manufacturing processes all that well, either - some sheets of sponge will have a greater volume of pore space, for instance.

Iskandar

12g cut?

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Chasse Patate

I think it is all the same.

And I don't necessarily think the brands (Andro, Donic, Tibhar, etc) are the ones that come up with something new and then tell ESN how to make their new rubber. I doubt most of them have the kinds of facilities to do rubber R & D.

I think when ESN develops something new, their sales department then pitches the new technology to the brands, who then order some new rubbers. Over and over again you will see one of the brands release a new line of rubbers and within 6 months all the other brand using ESN follow suit with a similar product.

Of course each brand's marketing department will use their own special techno-babble to make their product sound unique.

Almost always you can find something nearly identical to your favorite rubber that is made by the other brands. In the case your favorite rubber was just released, you may have to wait a few months.

Yes, that's for the budget Chinese sheets, but you would expect much tighter quality control for a German ESN sheets... that's one of the reasons you pay a much higher price. At the cheap end of rubber production they simply cannot afford that kind of quality control.... something gotta give.

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Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

I also think that's the most likely situation.

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Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

I wonder what your friend means by quality? It could mean different things and in this case the precise intended meaning is important.

My understanding is that ESN has the capability of modifying a host of parameters in several basic formulas which means they can produce thousands of different kinds of rubbers at least. However, they work with the actual companies to design rubbers to the specs that the companies want. That means they can vary pip shape density and orientation; topsheet composition, thickness, grip, and flexibility; and a host of aspects of the various sponges they make. However, at the end of the day they produce what the company wants.

If the company (Tibhar, Donic, Andro etc. etc. etc.) comes up with a design that doesn't play well, or that doesn't have much durability because of its design, I don't think that is something you can blame on ESN. Among other things, the company certainly has the obligation to beta test the rubber, and they are the ones who decide to put it on the market with their name on it.

ESN probably has very good relationships with their client companies, and when the company requests something that may not be a great idea, I suspect the ESN engineers would tell them, and the companies probably listen. Each of us may have some of those products we like more than others, but in general, these are quality products.

If on the other hand, if one lot of of a particular rubber is different from another, if the rubber you get varies over time, that is an ESN problem. That is what I would mean if I was talking about a "quality problem", but I'm not sure Haggis' friend means that.

I haven't played with that many different ESN rubbers. But from what I have seen, I can't see any evidence that reproducibility of a particular rubber has been different for, say, Donic vs. Tibhar (the two I have had enough experience with). In other words, using my definition of quality it all seems the same to me. You just can't compare what ESN and the Japanese companies do with $8 sheets of Chinese rubber.

Is it possible that by paying more money to ESN some companies get a more premium service so to speak? I suppose it's possible, but it just isn't something I could see a German company doing (from my experience in completely other realms). I would need to see some good evidence before I believed it.

Another thing about rubbers made by ESN is they have improved a lot from the early days. People who remember Donic F1 Desto will remember every slightly off center shot would cause your rubber to crumble around the edges.

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The argument is nonsense.

I believe ESN shares an owner with Donic. Yet Tibhar had the rubbers with the best reputation because of good marketing and strong player contracts.

The best ESN rubbers had a variant with every brand. Genius, Baracuda, Hexer, Rakza 7, Vega Property. Evolution, Bluefire, Rasant etc. The ESN rubbers come in generations based on the innovations that ESN sell to the equipment companies.

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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

True, I wouldn't expect a 12 gram difference between sheets for Tensors, but if you look at Silver's Mass Database:

http://www.choices-guide.com/silver/

you'll find the following:

Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm (5 sheets). Minimum 67.4g, maximum 71.8g. Difference 4.4g, 6.5%.
Xiom 012 Vega Pro Max (3 sheets). Minimum 64g, maximum 69g. Difference 5g, 7.8%.

While not as bad as Chinese, these are hardly tight tolerances. I was looking for a Tensor with more data, couldn't find any.

Iskandar