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Any bites yet? Even just reviews by people playing SP backhand would be interesting.

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Well, I couldn't wait. I had wanted to test this all in line with my new testing procedures to compare rubbers and blades across brands. Unfortunately that project is taking longer to setup than anticipated. Basically I got fed up. Wanted cheering up. Thought stuff it. And wam bam thank you man, one complete Mima Ito setup - at least based on what she was using two years ago!

So, what's it like to play with?

Well first things first. The blade - Nitakku Acustic Carbon. The handle has quite a pronounced flare on it and whilst the handle doesn't feel short in my hand - I have short stumpy palms - it does feel thin when playing with it. This is probably because the handle is held mainly in my thumb, index finger and middle finger near the top of the handle and away from the thicker part at the end. If you have big hands this handle may feel err, like a twig, certainly not the meaty type of handle I've come across on other blades.



As for the Fastarc, it has a premium quality look and feel to it although the sponge does look a little course.




It's also tensioned which you can see by the way it curls. The glue I'm using by the way is Impact water based glue which is fine and very similar to the Donic Vario glue I've used in the past.



Now on to the Moristo SP. These were what I was really interested in. Normally when I've used SP's I've used 1.5 - 1.8mm sponge. Occasionally 2mm. Very rarely max. The sponge itself is a creamy colour and far smoother than the Fastarc. It's more like a marble affect on the sponge in terms of it's smoothness, like it's got a plastic skin on it.




The pimples are vertically aligned which suggests this is a speedy short pip rather than spinny.



And the pips structure is a combination of sloped and cylindrical. Notice the bobbles on the tip of the pimples. They are quite pronounced and there are a lot of those bobbles suggesting this is a short pimple which can grip and spin the ball. There is an excellent thread on this forum here which talks about pip alignment and it's impact on the performance of a short pimples rubber https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12963



Those pimples are wide too, some of the widest I've used and I've used a lot. Only the 802.40 I have seems to be wider. Again more rubber surface coming in to contact with the ball suggests the ability to grip and spin the ball although the general width and wide base of the pimples suggests less flex so you should be able to give flat skiddy balls too? Is that right? Look at that sponge as well. The air pockets in that creamy white sponge are tiny, it almost looks solid by comparison to the Fastarc G-1. It's like the pimpled rubber topsheet has been stuck on to a piece of Edam cheese! Whilst the fastarc sponge is the total opposite and has the "Aero" chocolate bar affect.



When I was making this bat up, I was half expecting to have trouble cutting the Fastarc, thining it might crumble and the Moristo sponge tear. In reality, these two totally different sponges were some of the easiest to trim that I've come across. A very welcome surprise.

And finally, what's the combined weight of this setup, go on have a guess. The answer is here 175. Iv'e used white as the colour for the text, so if you want to know the answer you are going to have to use your mouse or finger to select the text and that will highlight it so you can read it. For me that's just above normal I'm typically in the 165-170 region. Oh ok, the answer is in the photo, but hey, you've not read that far in to my post yet to realise have you



Now to give my review a bit of context. I used short pips on my backhand from about 2000 until back surgery in 2015. I've used 802-1 in 1.5mm, 802-40 supersoft in 1.5, 1.8, 2 and 2.2mm. 1.8 is my preferred thickness. 799 and 563 and 105 Legend. Butterfly Challenger Attack in 1.5mm. Hallmark Magic Pips in 1.5mm. Globe 889 n-out 2mm both with the sponge and then I removed it and just used the top sheet - that was fun. Dr Evil OX. Aero Milky Way Pluto 1.6mm. DHS Sharping 1.8mm, TSP SuperSpin Pips 21 sponge in 2.2mm, TSP Tyrano 2.2mm and TSP Spectol 21 sponge in 1.7-1.9 I think. Dr Neubauer Killer (1.5mm) and Tornado Ultra. Joola Tango Ultra, Stiga Royal 2mm and others. Some have only stayed on my blade for one session, others for a season or more and others I keep returning to. But I don't think I've ever come across anything like the Nitakku Moristo SP's.

It has two characters, a Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde. You can get a good amount of spin when serving with the Moristo, more than a lot of those pimples I referenced above. It does feel quite soft and rubbery in terms of the top sheet albeit a bit harder than the Joola Tango Ultra but when you squeeze down on the sponge, the sponge doesn't give way much. I could push with the Moristo and rolling the ball back was very easy with a nice safe arc but..... Oh boy, when you counter hit or drive with this rubber and try and inject pace it changes character very quickly. The ball leaves the bat very flat and fast - at least it did with my technique. Unfortunately a flat ball is difficult to land on the other side of the table especially if you are foolish enough to take the ball below the net or around net height. The same is true for blocking. Soft block and yep fine, the Moristo takes the pace off the ball and has a nice slow looping arc back on the table before dying. Punch block and bam, the ball's trajectory is flat and gone in the direction of your bat angle. As I tend to take the ball early when blocking so many of my blocks would go long off the table, possibly because I'm now using an inverted technique for a SP. Either way, I don't really think blocking is Moristo's strength. When I did attack higher balls with a snappy action and got it right, that ball would go very quickly and flat and skid on the opponents side of the table making it hard for them to return as the ball was on them faster than they expected. But, play the ball with the BH outside of the line of my body - lazy me does this too much now - and that bat angle control is lost and errors occur. Mmmm...... Very unforgiving of poor technique. So I switched it my FH and for once I can say I enjoyed pimples on my FH side (inverted normally for me). It was far easier to use on my FH than BH but it still exhibited that flat trajectory when hitting with it.

Now in my defence, since back surgery I only really coach and to do that I use inverted on both sides so as not to confuse the kids (Calibra Tour S 1.9mm at the moment on my BH) so I've pretty much lost my SP technique. And a realisation of that loss of technique was brought home in spades by the Moristo. Anyway, i'll come back to it later. What about the Fastarc G-1?

Yum yum what a lovely surprise. I normally like a harder sponge on my FH and am not a fan of Euro springy tensor rubbers. On my coaching bat I use an old sheet of Xiom Musa and not the new version. Prior to that I've used Rakza 7 or Hurricane 8 and well lots of others too. Typically I also use blades with at least some balsa core - my coaching setup consists of a custom made blade by Peter Freundlieb with I think a pear tree veneer on my FH to help with spin and a harder walnut veneer on my BH to suit the use of SP's. The Nittaku Acustic Carbon plays differently to that blade with a totally different fee. The Natakku has more emphasis on dwell and feel, and the ball feels heavier on the blade when using the Acustic. Anyway, I digress. The Fastarc G-1 felt good. Very good. Very linear and by that I mean if you play a touch shot you can feel the ball and it's returned slow and tight. If you play with more pace, the rubber notches up the pace accordingly and if you go for control you get that with the ball going more often than not in the direction you've aimed at without any mad catapult affect. With the Fastarc G-1 you get what you put in and that makes it predictable to play with aiding consistency. In terms of spin, the Fastarc G-1 is up there with the spinnier rubbers I've used. In terms of speed, it's not. It's quick enough when you want and you can hit with it, but it's not a power speed demon. You can also use it a couple of meters back from the table although personally I found it worked better up to the table where touch, control and pace when you hit it are good.

So that was the practice session On Wednesday I got to use it unexpectedly in a match situation. No one turned at a fun local league match I attended to help coach a very good young girl. I was asked to fill in. What was I to say, it was a fun summer league match. I played my first "competitive" match in years. he he he. Well, I'd like to report that using Mima Ito's weapon of choice I destroyed my local league opponents. I beat 2 and lost to one. The setup obviously had let me down. Well actually I let the setup down. I loved the feel and control of the FH. I liked the control of the Acustic. I couldn't use the Moristo to save my life. The ball died off my bat when I just hung my bat out to to return dead slowish balls (inverted would have simply helped the ball back in play) and when I hit with it or was aggressive I missed the table (very few went in the net) almost all long, and flat, and did I say very long. At one point my opponent served too long to my FH, I whipped it back FH topspin, very comfortable. Point won. I joked I could play FH's for fun, just don't put it on my BH as I'm crap there. My opponent had the audacity to actually believe me, served wide to my BH and I dumped it in the net. With the Moristo I felt like I was playing with one side of my bat only and it wasn't the Moristo side! I simply wasn't good enough, fast enough, aggressive enough or direct enough to do the Moristo justice. The Moristo is one mean bully of a SP rubber. I'm too much of a nice guy pussy cat now. We didn't get on.

So back to my first post in this thread and the question I asked:

"the question is, after having a reasonable knock with "Ito's" setup up, will they
- want to change their setup for "Ito's", or
- only part of her setup, or
- none of it at all - and
- why will they think that and lastly
- will their opinon change once they know which professional uses the Nittaku setup and it's cost?

What do you think? How important is it that we know what the pro's use. I have my opinons but I'd be interested to know yours."

Well excuse me for answering my own question - to be exact questions, careless posting there Debater!

I will stick with the Fastarc G-1 for sure. By modern standards it's fairly priced, is quality, is linear, has good spin, good in the short game and enough power to suit my game now. I'll stick with the Acustic Carbon because I can't afford to write it off as an experiment and it did work well with the Fastarc - not sure how the Fastarc would work on a thick balsa blade like the TSP 6.5 I have. The Moristo is going to come off. Cant' use it. Lovely to roll with, good spin for a SP's but when I go for pace/power it just feels so flat and unforgiving I can't control it. I don't have the speed to get in to the right position, nor the reactions, nor the quickness of arm/wrist to take advantage of it's killer flat fast pace. For me the Moristo isn't a control pimple it's a "i'm gong to ram that ball down your throat" type of rubber.

And to the last question, how important is it to know what the pro's use? From my £240 experiment, it should only be a guide as to what type of rubber or blade may suit your game and even then, you have to be honest about what your game is. What you think it is, how you envisage it in your brain, what your friends tell you, could bear no resemblance to the reality. I thought the Moristo SP's would suit me as I thought I played aggressive off my backhand. Reality is I'm too slow to do that now and I've lost what technique I had to use SP's and truth be told, I never could do what the pro's do anyway. They have talent, practice for hours and hours and the body to do what they want how they want when they want. I don't. Sob. Sob. Dreams over.

So what next? Well, ignoring everything I just said, I went and researched what the pros use on their BH's and it seams the style I now play (super ace, high level pro level, positive manifestations and all that), Tenergy 64 should suit my BH. Another expensive experiment and one I'm not sure about as I've not enjoyed the mushy feel of Tenergy in the past. You know, one of the joys of SP's is that generally they are far cheaper and last longer than inverted rubbers so that EJ itch can be scratched that much harder.

New setup then, Nitakku Acustic Carbon, FH Nitakku Fantastic Arc G1 max , BH Butterfly 64 2.1mm. Outcome, bankruptcy but the wisdom gained will help me in my pathfinderpro career.

Roll on delivery of that 64!

Wow.. This hugely interesting post got "buried" by other stuff so I just noticed it.

The part about producing shots with the SP sounds familiar - I once tried putting a bat together with 563 on the backhand, and I couldn't play with that rubber worth anything. It even ruined my forehand, since I had to play so close to the table. Gave up after a couple weeks.

Iskandar

Great post, Debater!

I've been thinking a bit about this in the last few weeks. I've been very consistent in my setup for the last few years now. FH has been some sort of inverted rubber, varying depending on if I have some club sponsorship. For a while I used Fastarc G1. Then I used Bluefire M1. Most recently I've been using Tenergy 05. When this sheet grows tired, I may go to MXP, as I can get it for half the price of Tenergy now.

My BH hasn't changed - I've used Hellfire OX for 2 yrs.

My blade has been the only variable. I played all last season with the Tibhar Defence Plus. Before that I played a season with the Nittaku Barwell Fleet. And I changed back to the Barwell Fleet after the last match of the last season.

I've been thinking: my game and maturity has developed. I now play players against whom I can chop, and my chopping ability is now not bad. I do far less close-to-the-table LP play. Yet I still use OX LP. I use the blade I use because it is high quality, with a big sweet spot, and I found the TDP to be very very slow... to the extent that I was having to work too hard.

In terms of model player - my favourite is Filius, by a long way. So, should I use a Filius equivalent? That would mean going from 1.7 to 2.1 on my FH. Probably not a huge deal. It would mean going to a slower blade... for example Diode V... or an old JSH. That probably wouldn't be a bad thing, and the slower blade might compensate for the thicker sponge. And, most importantly, it would mean going to FL3 with some sponge. This is the killer!

I had to play for a week with a Hellfire with sponge... maybe 0.8? I damaged my rubber in a tournament, and didn't have a backup with me. Someone had a sheet of hellfire 0.8 to hand, so I stuck it on. I was utterly hopeless at service return. It felt completely, radically different. Away from the table it was ok, but on service return... just yuck.

Years ago I flirted with FL3 1.3.... it was gorgeous for chopping... even back then. But very spin-responsive, and terrible for service return.

I'll be playing my first season in SBL this year... there's no way I'd risk changing from my tried-and-tested Hellfire OX... well actually I might try the Dr N Troublemaker... but no way I'd go to a grippy LP with Sponge - that would just be suicide. I might give consideration to a Diode V and a 2.1 Tenergy... but frankly, my EJ days are long behind me. I have a casual curiosity, but nothing more than that.

So... why wouldn't I swap my setup for a pros? Because at long last I've learned that consistency matters, and I have some understanding of how my setup works. Incidentally although I found Nittaku/Donic/Xiom/Andro to be pretty much drop-in replacements, I do genuinely prefer T05... for that reason I will probably pay the Butterfly tax, and not switch to MXP. I might even try the Dignics, if the bank will issue a large enough loan....

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Check out my blog - LordCope's Latest Learning Log - 10+ years of accumulate mistakes!

I went for the full Ito setup as well and I'm keeping it. The only difference is I got the large straight handle acoustic carbon bc I don't have Mima-size hands.

I've never tried to copy a pro setup before I thought it was crazy tbh. But I was having trouble finding the right blade after switching to SP bh, and copying Ito actually saved me a lot of time and money. The blade is five times what my sweden classics cost, but going from t05 x 2 to g1 and moristo more than compensates.

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

But you still cannot be sure that the Nittaku blade is the right and the best one for SP BH...

Wow. I spent the last hour or so re-reading all the posts on this thread. And then I looked at this other thread (which was linked in one of the posts):

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31038#p334259

I'd forgotten about all about this. What fun we had discussing all this stuff. If you want to see a discussion of all the different DHS Hurricane Long (and related) blades, it's all a few posts back.

Iskandar

Well, as promised the Moristo has come off. In it's place is Tenergy 64 2.1mm.




mmmm. This better be magical. Unlike the the Fastarc G-1 there is no curve in the rubber when laid flat.

Looking at the pips and sponge, the pips seem quite wide with a reddish, pinky, orangey, sort of like sponge.



When compared together the pips look wider on the Tenergy 64 although the Fastarc's sponge seems a little more "areo chocolate bar like" and if I press down on both rubbers, the Fastarc G1 seems to give way more suggesting it's softer, but it doesn't play that way. The Tenergy 64 definitely feels bouncier in play, more lively.



The setup also felt noticeably heavier than I remembered the Fastarc G-1 / Moristo setup being. I was very surprised when it weighed in at 182g, only 7g more.



And so to it's use. Another Summer League match.... Da da daaaaaaaah.

In play the blade feels rigid and, well like a piece of wood. Even though only 7g more, it feels a lot heavier in play too. This is possibly due to this setup being head heavy. When I balanced the bat in the middle on the side of my hand it didn't balance, it tipped over towards the tip of the blade. I prefer a centrally balanced setup, feels less like swinging a club that way. The Fastarc still felt good though. I like the feel of this rubber and so did someone else, a looper / hitter, I lent the blade to for a minute or too. He's a left hander and got a lot of top and side when looping with the Fastarc on his FH. But I already knew I liked the Fastarc, what about the expensive Tenergy 64 - the one the pro's use a lot on their BH - would I swap my Stiga Tour S for Tenergy 64?

In the warmup I had a knock with Toby, excellent cadet player. The Tenergy 64 felt bouncy, very mushy and bouncy. All the things I didn't like about the Tenergy 05 I'd tried. The sort of pi-toyngggggg or slow sink, have snuggle in the rubber then pow, expelled at force. The nearest type of rubber from memory I can describe this to is the old Donic Desto F1 rubber. I twiddled to see how the Fastarc G1 compared to the Tenergy 64 on my BH side. Toby switched direction of play, caught me off guard, I lunged to the right and clunk. It wasn't a hard knock, done much worse to other rubbers with no damage resulting but I definitely caught the Tenergy 64 on the edge of the table - hell, I didn't even make contact with the ball!

I looked down - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO................................


A closer look showed the damage. I now know why it's called Tenergy 64 - 64 seconds is all it lasts. That works out at almost a £1 a second. Not funny, stop laughing, please stop, it's not funny, really......



Straight away I felt the need to go around and show everyone what had just happened, as if that would make it alright again. Toby's mum said she'd have been very angry with Toby if he'd done that. What! It was an accident, it was poor rubber quality, it wasn't me, nope definitely not my fault. I wanted my money back, fagile, fragile, I'll give you fragile, that top sheet must be tissue paper thick and highly tensioned. Ok I hit the table, but come on, a car tyre hits the road for thousands of miles, hits curbs, runs over glass, stones, skids and keeps on performing. A car tyre costs less... it's a disgrace. Table tennis rubbers that last 26000 hours, yes, that's what we should demand, rubber equality. We want rubber equality, we want rubber equality, sob sob. Not my fault, sob... yep it was.

I put the bat away concerned that if I played with it anymore I'd only make the tears worse (ironic eh, tears and tears - both meanings appropriate) and I hoped to add some water based glue and let it seep in to the tears to seal them down - which I've now done.

So, I played my first match with my coaching set up and hit the ball hard, very hard grrrrr . But who cares. Played my second match with my coaching setup - lost in 5. Had fun as I'd calmed down a bit now but now I also cared. Losing sucks almost as much as destroying a £64 sheet of rubber in 64 seconds. Last match and out came the Acustic setup. Outcome, match won. I played a wiley old campaigner with SP's on his BH who stays up close to the table. I had a lot of fun. Not as much fun if I'd lost mind you. I still couldn't use the Tenergy 64. Not my kind of rubber. And quite frankly, I now have no BH. I've lost my SP's technique spending so much time blocking with inverted when coaching, I can't play anything other than blocks with the occasional roll. I can coach, I can see where technique breaks down but I'll be dammed if I can consistently topspin off my backhand - take it way too late or lunge at it. Note to self. Timing point sucks. Distance from ball when playing BH sucks. Tenergy 64 sucks!

So what to do, I've literally only played 5 ends and a brief warm up with Tenergy 64. I can't afford to change my BH rubber again. I have decided. I shall punish myself and keep the Tenergy 64 on my BH. Eventually the defeats and rubbish shots from my BH will force me to get off my backside and be selfish enough to practise on my own BH and get it right. When I've done that I'll revisit this topic with a more errr, informed opinion on the performance of the Tenergy 64.

Outcome. Doomed. The professional setup journey of joy became a mission of misery, except for the Fastarc G-1 and it's those little glimmers of light which keep us coming back for more.

If you were a pro you would have someone else glue a new T64 on that bat while you use your reserve identical set up. Just saying. Also I think only some pros get so emotional about their equipment, and that would be the blade not the rubbers.

Can you say that Tenergy 64 is eminently hit( )table?

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Retriever (sometimes golden, but often leaden)
Moderator, Inverted Retriever Technique sub-forum - http://ooakforum.com/viewforum.php?f=74

I can be very sure that if I hit a horrible backhand the blame is entirely on me and nothing to do with equipment. And that's all I need to know.

Sorry about your T64, someone should have told you. If you touch anything an edge with tenergy it tears. Everyone knows this.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

Yes, despite so many claims that Tenergy is more durable than Tensors, it is very vulnerable to tears. This why I use 14mm edge tape on any bat with Tenergy.

Incidentally, I find older Tenergy much better to use. By which i don't mean some mythical early version, just stuff that has been used and lost some of its excitement. Like kids are easier to deal with when they hit 28.

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Other setups:
SDC Custom Blade/Butterfly Dignics 80/Butterfly Glayzer
BTY Viscaria/Tibhar K3/Tibhar K3

Thank you.

PS, not everyone

Edging tape will now be applied. I've used some waterbased glue to seep in to the tears and let it dry so hopefully it won't get worse and if my timing is so bad I hit the ball on the edge of the bat, I get what I deserve!

This quote has given me an idea for another topic though. Cheers

Mmmm. Had a good coaching session tonight with someone who wanted drilling to improve his footwork. Gave me a great opportunity to practice accurate drive / blocking whilst varying the pace. The Tenergy 64 is growing on me. At the moment I'm more comfortable using it when my "opponent" is putting pace on the ball and I can counter it, or use that pace back against them. Not so comfortable with slower, floaty type balls but we'll get there.

The new setup is worth persevering with.

You know, I only thought table tennis EJs were into this sort of thing...



Hate to think of what that setup costs... Probably more than a Viscaria with Dignics. Strangely enough, he calls it a "blade" at least once... What does a "pro" racket cost? Strings? Paying someone to string it properly? I COULD look it up.. but I'm not THAT interested in it.

Golf EJs probably have it even worse, cost wise. Good thing F1 isn't a participatory sport..

Iskandar