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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 02:26 
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man_iii wrote:
Seems like we need ITTF to subsidize the cost of H3 National rubber !!!! :rofl: And the cost of all Butterfly and Tenergy products !!! :lol: :rofl:


You make is sound like ITTF is independently wealthy. Money just keeps rolling in automatically, and there's no need to spend ANY money on running tournaments, buying TV time, etc. They could spend it all on buying rubber for everyone.

man_iii wrote:
I would imagine that ITTF would randomly buy said equipments from the local in-country dealerships and resellers. Any sub-standard product will get the rubber manufacturer in trouble, possible ban, fined heavily, etc.

If all H3 Rubbers became 300 USD per sheet, then who would actually spend the money for that rubber ? Global sales would plummet, most ppl who were swayed by H3 used by Ma Long/FZD/ZJK etc would not readily drop 300 on a H3. Then we will really see which rubber manufacturer guarantees the QC on their product will then really really shine, since all the players are now going to buy that ... just like most players buying Tenergy ! :lol:


No, of COURSE "all H3 rubbers" won't become $300 a sheet. Just the "pro" "pre-broken-in" versions pros like, er, Ma Long will buy. Everyone else will buy the regular $30 version and do what with it? Boost it, of course. And break it in themselves. In the hope that they can have the same $300 sheet after they're done doing all that stuff. And save a lot of money in the process. And you will have changed nothing. As a matter of fact, we have this today - you can buy - if you want to - the plain white pack "National" H3 with the DHS hologram which signifies freshness and has four corners, for, what was it.. $200? Or you can buy, for somewhat less money, the blue pack "Provincial" H3 with six corners. OR the ordinary retail H3 with eight corners and the fancy packaging for $30. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

man_iii wrote:
If any PRO player needed a guaranteed rubber anywhere in the world, he can trust the Butterfly dealership and get Tenergy with the exact characteristics anywhere in the world. Unless it is fake, which case easily distinguishable. So why can't other rubber manufacturers do the same ?

Only 2 or 3 rubber brands I really trust, Butterfly, Yasaka and probably Xiom. Blades from Nittaku , TSP and again Butterfly/Yasaka/Xiom.

We need the QC and rules of the sport to be reliable to a high standard and degree.


You want QC?? Be prepared to pay up the nose for it. Like you do with Tenergy. Want to pay Tenergy prices for H3? I sure don't. Looks like you don't trust ESN, either... :lol: :lol: :lol:

man_iii wrote:
We need to make the sport accessible to all players, within reasonable prices. Else how else will we grow the sport ? We will end up with tiers of players like we have now. Top-level players spend insane amounts getting training, equipment, travel, etc. But the prize money is like peanuts. So only truly talented AND rich players get to the top-levels. Rest of the lower classes have no chance of reaching the pinnacle of the sport.


I have to admit - I about had a fit when I read this.. I mean.. you think if all rubber brands "had the same amount of QC" as Butterfly we WOULD'T have "tiers of players" "like we have now"???? That, somehow, magically, all those 1500 level club players will play at the same level as Ma Long???? And "have a chance of reaching the pinnacle of the sport"??? Is this what it's all about.. you think if you have access to Ma Long's equipment you can play like him?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

man_iii wrote:
All these questions and discussions SHOULD BE HAPPENING IN ITTF! :swear:

Instead it is happening in player forums and ITTF is playing world super-power chess and what-have-you.


This is worse than pie-in-the-sky (or even cow-pie-in-the-sky). It's getting worked up over nothing, a non-solution to a made-up problem that doesn't even really exist.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 03:55 
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Would I prefer a guaranteed way of preventing equipment manipulation? Sure. But there is no sense in making rules for things you can't enforce.
Instead of fighting for fairness, just make it equally unfair for all :P . In other words, make what is considered "Cheating" not "Cheating." That way, bat doping, hidden serves, even revoke the 2 color rule. Everything is available to everyone, all legal...and may the best man with the best methods win.

The problem comes when some people obey rules and other don't. Get rid of the unenforceable rules, and you won't have that problem.

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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 11:59 
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Oh wow! Wat a contentious topic I opened up.

Couple of things here I want to clarify.

The issues here are caused by ITTF getting "bribes" and payout from manufacturers to bend the rules for them. It is obvious with the example of patent-holding wife of ITTF member benefitting directly on the plastic ball scandal. There is plenty of evidence that ITTF PAYS countries to VOTE through "bribery". So ITTF IS RICH. They are the ones certifying factories / products / tournaments and with tons of fees and payments. Since they are in cahoots with the business of selling TT equipment, they DO get payouts. ITTF gets advertisement revenue ? Exclusive rights to broadcast TT matches ? So many ways they just pocket the cash. Players pay for equipment 100% ... if ITTF had a deal with manufacturers, guaranteeing sale of say 100,000 units of Tenergy in one year ... pretty sure Butterfly will love them.

I would rather see ITTF fix the rules and clean up their act. Rather than try to fight big shots like business owners of TT equipment factories I would rather fix the issues in the sport.

All this business of Tenergy being 60 USD or H3 National being 85 USD etc will not reduce overnight but gradually as better rules and QC enforcement from ITTF. Right now nothing of the sort happens so things remain the same. QC need not push prices sky high! Imagine tournament with maximum equipment price of 50 USD and must be bought commercially. If randomly ANY Top-50 ranked player will be forced to pay and buy and assemble his equipment at a ITTF tournament venue ... with BIG Penalties for manufacturers if it is sub-standard ... . Again this is a non-issue since ITTF won't do these things.

Players should be focused on playing better. There is a huge talent pool for TT in the 3rd-world countries, none of them will enter TT or get the leg-up they need in time to get to the international level. No I don't expect the next Ma Long just because of equipment, but rather because players can AFFORD to travel and play with equivalent training and equipment :lol: Right now way too expensive to play TT competitively for a lot of folks.

The previous stuff is all pie-in-the-sky because I can't fix the ITTF. If the ITTF decide to do their jobs every problem disappears and becomes a non-issue. Right now the issues are really real.

Also please do pick apart the ideas as that helps to move the conversation towards ways we as players can influence the game.


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 12:01 
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Japsican wrote:
Would I prefer a guaranteed way of preventing equipment manipulation? Sure. But there is no sense in making rules for things you can't enforce.
Instead of fighting for fairness, just make it equally unfair for all :P . In other words, make what is considered "Cheating" not "Cheating." That way, bat doping, hidden serves, even revoke the 2 color rule. Everything is available to everyone, all legal...and may the best man with the best methods win.

The problem comes when some people obey rules and other don't. Get rid of the unenforceable rules, and you won't have that problem.


An International TT Trickshots Tournament ! With Style Point ! :up: :lol: :rofl:

All-Out Anything Goes International Open TT Tournament. Only rule is you have to hit the ball back onto the other side of the table!

:rofl: :lol:


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 12:17 
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man_iii wrote:
The issues here are caused by ITTF getting "bribes" and payout from manufacturers to bend the rules for them. It is obvious with the example of patent-holding wife of ITTF member benefitting directly on the plastic ball scandal. There is plenty of evidence that ITTF PAYS countries to VOTE through "bribery". So ITTF IS RICH. They are the ones certifying factories / products / tournaments and with tons of fees and payments. Since they are in cahoots with the business of selling TT equipment, they DO get payouts. ITTF gets advertisement revenue ? Exclusive rights to broadcast TT matches ? So many ways they just pocket the cash. Players pay for equipment 100% ... if ITTF had a deal with manufacturers, guaranteeing sale of say 100,000 units of Tenergy in one year ... pretty sure Butterfly will love them.


*Sigh* More of this conspiracy junk.

man_iii wrote:
Players should be focused on playing better. There is a huge talent pool for TT in the 3rd-world countries, none of them will enter TT or get the leg-up they need in time to get to the international level. No I don't expect the next Ma Long just because of equipment, but rather because players can AFFORD to travel and play with equivalent training and equipment :lol: Right now way too expensive to play TT competitively for a lot of folks.


And your fix for this?? Make the pros buy equipment at tournaments. Weird... :?:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 13:50 
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iskandar taib wrote:
man_iii wrote:
The issues here are caused by ITTF getting "bribes" and payout from manufacturers to bend the rules for them. It is obvious with the example of patent-holding wife of ITTF member benefitting directly on the plastic ball scandal. There is plenty of evidence that ITTF PAYS countries to VOTE through "bribery". So ITTF IS RICH. They are the ones certifying factories / products / tournaments and with tons of fees and payments. Since they are in cahoots with the business of selling TT equipment, they DO get payouts. ITTF gets advertisement revenue ? Exclusive rights to broadcast TT matches ? So many ways they just pocket the cash. Players pay for equipment 100% ... if ITTF had a deal with manufacturers, guaranteeing sale of say 100,000 units of Tenergy in one year ... pretty sure Butterfly will love them.


*Sigh* More of this conspiracy junk.

Its not conspiracy when Weikert and Saharara and gang are actively known to be doing it :P

Quote:

man_iii wrote:
Players should be focused on playing better. There is a huge talent pool for TT in the 3rd-world countries, none of them will enter TT or get the leg-up they need in time to get to the international level. No I don't expect the next Ma Long just because of equipment, but rather because players can AFFORD to travel and play with equivalent training and equipment :lol: Right now way too expensive to play TT competitively for a lot of folks.


And your fix for this?? Make the pros buy equipment at tournaments. Weird... :?:

Iskandar


The PROs are already sponsored :-) Find ways to punish bad manufacturing in commercial products ;-)


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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 15:15 
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man_iii wrote:
Its not conspiracy when Weikert and Saharara and gang are actively known to be doing it :P


That's the very definition of a conspiracy... :lol: (It wouldn't be a conspiracy if they came out and announced what they're supposedly doing, which they, of course, have not.) It's a conspiracy THEORY if this "knowledge" is based on a bunch of baseless posts everyone seems to be repeating ad infinitum on forums.

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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 15:53 
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I actually went and had a look at what Igor posted. It's from about 18 months ago, haven't heard a peep about it since. Rheometer?? I suppose that's better than trying to detect boosters chemically - after all you'll find boosters in ESN Tensors and Tenergy, the factory puts them there. The Chinese can just as easily pre-treat H3 as well.

Frankfurter Allgemeine wrote:

Cheating by China's stars : doping controls for table tennis bats? By Peter Hess - Updated on 17.02.2016 - 11:36

Timo Boll complained in the FAZ.NET interview that 80 percent of the table tennis players are doing their bats. Now, however, there is unexpectedly new hope for more justice in the duels with China's super-cracks.

Twelve years later the German gentlemen form the second best table tennis team in the world. And as long as they try in vain to take the Chinese myth of their invincibility. The chances that the Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro might change in the summer were, until recently, very unrealistic. The Chinese table tennis match is as powerful as ever, but the eternal challengers from Europe are not as strong as they once were.

Timo Boll celebrates his 35th birthday in early March and is no longer quite at the height of his creative power. The talent Patrick Franziska has developed well for European conditions but not good enough to endanger any Chinese top player. And Dimitrij Ovtcharov, the best player in the world for a year, who was not born in the Middle Kingdom, has never been able to win against the best Chinese, Ma Long. Even the notoriously optimistic and fighting Ovtcharov said in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung in late December: "There were times when we had better conditions to beat the Chinese."

Now, however, a new glimmer of hope appears unexpectedly on the horizon. No, no new German table tennis hero was discovered, but it might well be that the Chinese are robbed of some of their strength in Rio. It is about the equipment, more precisely the linings. In an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung , Boll, the record European champion from Höchst in the Odenwald, had complained: "The pads are an extreme advantage for the Chinese." The rubber pad of the Chinese racquets already has higher production quality. The other is: the linings are treated with chemicals that intensify the catapult effect once again.

However, this is clearly in contradiction with the rules of the International Table Tennis Association (ITTF). This means that the linings may not be treated or altered after production. This is, however, Boll, but Usus. Not only among the Chinese, but also among the other Asians and many Europeans. The German estimates: "About 80 percent do their clubs." The Chinese, however, had the greatest advantage because the chemicals with the Chinese rubber had the best interaction. "If the Chinese take a top spin as usual with my bat, then the ball falls in their own half," says Boll, who already attended the experiment. In his time as a legionary in the Chinese Super League, he exchanged the bat with a Chinese team colleague several times during the training session.

In the big tournaments the racquets are checked regularly, but never before has a tamped flooring been registered. "To prove this, you would have to remove the pad from the bat and send it to the lab. I've been asking for a long time. "But has never been put into practice.

Boll's call for more justice and equality of opportunity, however, has come to an end. Hubert Motschmann, Professor of Chemical Physics at the University of Regensburg, has analyzed one of the popular so-called "boosters" after the publication of the interview, namely "Haifu Tuning Oil". From this, Motschmann, in collaboration with the table tennis team, conducted a control procedure that would be practicable and affordable during a tournament. The basic approach: All coatings approved by the ITTF are subjected to an approval test. This input control could be carried out by means of a rheometer (measuring device for determining the deformation and flow behavior of matter) which measures the deformation of the coating and measures the catapult effect on the ball. The actual measured values ​​for a tournament are then compared with the basic values ​​and the player is disqualified if the deviation is to be determined.

Professor Motschmann's basic concept has already landed at Thomas Weikert, the German president of the ITTF. Following an initial internal review that has been positive, Weikert has commissioned the World Commissioner's Equipment Commission to draw up an expertise on feasibility by 27 February, so that the Executive Committee of the World Federation can decide on the introduction of the new tests. The committee convenes a few days later within the framework of the Team World Championships in Kuala Lumpur. Until the Olympic Games in August, the new control system could have already been introduced. Weikert is optimistic: "If the whole thing can be implemented and financed with a reasonable effort, no one will say anything about it."

Motschmann calculates the costs for a conventional rheometer with 20,000 euros, but for the comparatively primitive measuring procedure at the table tennis , however, it would also have a stripped-down version. The World Federation would not have to buy or lend more than two units, because only the World Cup will be controlled during their major tournaments. The test was easy to carry out during an event and the result would be within three minutes. "This is so simple, every referee can do after a brief briefing," says Professor Motschmann.

ITTF President Weikert defends himself against Boll's accusation that the association has remained idle in the past: "We had already adopted the topic of tuned racquets because we want equal opportunities for all players. But the athletes' commission was initially against the fact that the players have to tear their pads from the club for test purposes. This would be an unacceptable procedure because the thugs are sensitive. "In the meantime, the spokesman of the ten-man Commission, Vladimir Samsonov, had signaled that the players were in agreement. "Timo's interview has certainly accelerated the matter."

For Motschmann the objections are no argument. "Rackets are torn and exchanged by the world class players as well as after every game. And even if you reattach the old flooring, it is not associated with a performance disadvantage. "If the new control procedure fails to tear off the flooring, however, Motschmann has an alternative available:" The measurements become more accurate by detaching the flooring, but me could also offer a method in which the pad should not be removed from the bat. "

Weikert stressed that until now there was no proof that Chinese or other athletes had manipulated. "So I do not want to talk about fraud. But that we have a problem with the toppings, I do not want to disclose. "Boll's demand in the FAZ interview does not represent a single opinion, but the majority of the world class players, straight from France, Germany and Japan. The fact that a lot of players are doing their bats is considered an open secret.

Boll does not believe that the Chinese would immediately lose their pre-eminence in the table tennis if a new test procedure were to go. "I do not want to say that the Chinese strength is based solely on the deposits. They have the best conditions, most coaches, most of the money. But it is certain that they can not play some of the ball as they play it, and some blows do not have the quality they have at the moment. "Boll does not want to be an Olympiasieger, but an equality of opportunity:" If the Chinese would have been developed, which is superior to all, then that would be all right. Then I could buy it in the store, or I could change the equipment supplier. But Chinese thugs, there is nowhere to buy, and the pads are still being treated. "

The Chinese did not have a sense of wrong. For them, the tests were in accordance with the rules. "The player Wang Hao once demonstrated in a live performance of the Chinese television how they prepare the bat. Any subsequent treatment is expressly forbidden, in fact it was proof of fraud, "says Boll. He is, on the other hand, able to compete with a racquet, which is not only compliant with the rules of measurement, but is 100% equivalent to the rules. Even more: "I play with floor coverings that you can buy in the shop."



Interesting. According to Boll: "The rubber pad of the Chinese racquets already has higher production quality. " :lol: Completely opposite "accepted wisdom", to what we've just been talking about vis-à-vis Chinese rubber quality. I wonder what "thugs" are. I've figured out "floor pads"... I think.

Iskandar


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