OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Good afternoon all, I hope this finds you and your families well, and that you all enjoyed a very Happy New Year.

I’m writing today with some frustrations in regards to my current setup(s) and hope to spark friendly banter over my situation in hopes to get me into the “right” equipment to help me improve for the 2018 season.

*I wrote this up on my lunch break and apologize for spelling and grammatical errors, there will be plenty.*

Background Information (I’ll try to be brief)

-I've been a two wing looper for 10 years
-Due to a wrist injury I switched to long pips on my BH 3 months ago
-Current time played as a modern defender: around 75 hours.
-Due to logistics I've played in only 7 USATT sanctioned tourneys
-USATT Rating: mid 1500's
-2018 Rating Goal: Mid 1600's

-Prior Setup (two wing looper setup):

Blade: Tibhar Stratus Powerwood

FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm

BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

-Most Consistent Set up since making the switch

Blade: Tibhar Stratus Power Defense

FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm

BH: Dr.Neubauer Gangster OX

-What I like about this setup

Light weight making it very easy on my wrist.

Tons of control

Victas rubber is comparable to T05 and is more forgiving.

Gangster OX is a service returning god of a rubber and greatly improved my close to the table play. Chops decently mid-distance from the table. (Would do better on a faster blade imo.)

-What I don’t like about this setup

Very slow in comparison to what I’m used to. I find that my loops back off the table really takes a lot of effort in order to make it to the net let alone get over

I enjoy the victas rubber a lot on my forehand but miss the spin T05 and throw arc has over this rubber.

I’m unable to flick the ball over using gangster ox. Granted I don’t do a lot of BH flicks, but it would be very nice to have the option to attack with pips once and a while to keep my opponent on their toes.

-Fast forward to 12/20/17: I attended the USATT Open held in Vegas a couple of weeks ago and decided since I was unhappy with my setup, I stopped by the butterfly vendor and splurged on a set up.

Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk

FH: Butterfly Rozena 1.9mm

BH: Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

I’ve had maybe 10 hours of play with the set up and I can say that I absolutely despise the Butterfly Rozena on my forehand.

I was informed by Butterfly that this rubber was their answer to all the Tenergy alternatives that are out now. It also is aimed at non elite players that need a bit more forgiveness than the Tenergy line.

Basically it’s the same sponge as T05 (only 1 degree softer at 35°) and they claim it’s the same top sheet as 05 for $45USD.

I’ve found that while the Rozena is more forgiving than Tenergy (not by much), it doesn’t come close to the amount of spin that Tenergy 05 produces. I’ve had to change my forehand loops stroke to accommodate this rubber. Ultimately having to put the set up away for the time being because I don’t want to ruin the work I’ve put into my form this past year.

Speed is almost identical to Tenergy 05.

Due to less spin than its Tenergy 05 brother it has a much lower throw.

I feel this rubber would be more suited for a backhand rather than a forehand.

2018 -The Year of the Pips

I’ve dubbed this year, “The Year of the Pips” for a couple of reasons. One, in the grand scheme of things I haven’t practiced nearly enough with LP to comfortably explain where I excel and where I don’t excel. So this year is the year I plan to dive head first into the Pips world and start learning all I can about them.
Two, I want to find the right pips for me. Up until now I’ve tried:

Feint Long II 0.5mm (15 hours of play)

Dr.Neubauer Gangster OX (45-50 hours of play)

Feint Long III 1.1mm (10-20 hours of play)

I’m not partial to any of these rubbers…

I enjoy the simplicity of the Gangster OX in that I don’t have to think about varying the spin as much, in that the spin is dictated by how much spin is given to me. It also is nice cause I don’t attack with these pips ever, which forces me to chop, bump, etc... I do twiddle a lot using this setup; which I shouldn’t with my wrist the way it is, but old habits die hard.
All the while thoroughly enjoying having 1.1mm sponge on the Feint Long III for the extra dwell time to attack certain balls. It’s flabbergasted some of the top rated players in my club (1800-1950) when I’m able to back hand loop/flick their service or a weaker ball. However figuring out how much spin to put on my chops has been quiet frustrating to say the least.

Dude, stop rambling, what do you want?/TLDR
With the above mentioned, what are your LP rubber recommendations for a beginner LP player that adapts well to change, that will help develop the required strokes needed for LP at a higher level?

There are countless amounts of rubber out there, we all know that; so any help you can provide to help save me money that would greatly be appreciated

TLDR
Another beginner Modern Defender looking for LP suggestions that will help develop his game, and not break the piggy bank too much Cheers

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

If you're not struggling with FL3, I'd stick with it. It's got incredible control, is lovely for chopping, and extremely good if you need to attack and flick.

I'd probably go back to T05 on your FH. Proven rubber, great for defending and fishing on the FH if you need to, and has the arc and spin you're used to.

I'd stick with the blade, and just work on your technique. It's not a slow blade at all, and with say 1.9 T05 on it, you should have no problem looping agressively from mid distance. If you can't, the problem is in your technique - video yourself and get some feedback, or spend a few hours with a quality coach.

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Yasaka Sweden Classic | 802 OX | C8 OX
Check out my blog - LordCope's Latest Learning Log - 10+ years of accumulate mistakes!

So...

I'm going to say something that I've told myself several times already, but did not really follow 100%, probably because of the same reasons as yourself (trying stuff is fun): equipment is overrated (and so is technique as long as you do not worry too much about being 'capped' in TTEdge's parlance). It does not matter much which LP or inverted rubber you or I use, or at least it does not matter as much as we think.

Gaining 100 USATT points in a year should be quite doable (although I failed to do it this year myself ), and 7 tournaments per year is a pretty good number. I suspect the shortest path to this goal would be something along the line of:

* Cutting off stupid mistakes in the matches - eliminating poor shot selection; not going for 110% power and missing the table, but instead putting ball on the table with 70% shot; aiming for the middle of the table (that's where player's body/crossover point is as well ) instead of corners etc. Basically let your opponent make a mistake instead of you (at 1600-1700 they will oblige).

* Improving tactical aspect of the game: reading opponent's weakness and exploiting it; having few reliable tactical combos in your arsenal. Being able to recognize that something have changed in the game and adapt is pretty important too - at higher level opponents are better at this, they no longer do the same thing over and over.

* Toughening up in the tournament settings: just having presence of mind to realize "I probably should stop doing X" is very helpful ( e.g. I saw you faulting several reverse pendulum serves in one game at Westchester - even one probably was too much). Your serves are above your level, by the way, IMHO.

Also, as another thought, it's good to have internal understanding what your 'A' and 'B' game is. I sort of realized that I'm not really playing a true chopper game right now, it's more of using LP to get a weak return and put it away, or win it outright through LP bump/punch. Not what I intended, but somehow that's how actual matches play out. My 'B' game is probably mostly close to the table blocking. Not sure where true chopping is, so far it seems to be mostly relegated to practice.

Hope it helps

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USATT: 1807 | League: 1887

One method to simplify matters and save money is to choose your LP based on where and how you enjoy playing most and just stick with it, e.g:

Close to table blocking and pushing with relatively spin insensitive LP (e.g. Gangster OX)

Away from table chopping with grippier LP (e.g. FL3 1.1)

Mid distance, a bit of everything with a more all-round LP (e.g. FL2 0.5)

Unfortunately I’m too easily tempted to experiment and don't know whether I'm Arthur or Marthur half the time.

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2. S&T Black & White / Armstrong SH-I 1.8 / TSP Curl P3 Alpha R OX

I wouldn't say I'm struggling too badly with the FL3. I would say that my struggles come from not having enough practice with it, so I will definitely adhere to your advice and stick with it! Thank you.



You read my mind, I switched the Rozzena out last night for T05 1.9mm It's the price of tenergy that makes me go and try new inverted rubber out. IMO there is nothing like tenergy.



Definitely sticking with this blade, it has the speed I'm looking for, it's comfortable and the T05 should shine quite well on it!

Don't have a coach up here in the great state of Maine, but will increase my drill session time with it in the up coming months!

Thanks again for your time!

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

+1 For Dusty's statement.

Feint 3 and Gangster are very different pimples for different playing styles.

Gangster as with most Dr N rubbers are mostly suitable for close to the table style of play but also suitable for some chopping. Whereas Feint 3 is better suited for chopping mid and long distance from the table. Having said this either rubber can be played in varying styles depending on the skills of the user.

https://www.megaspin.net/articles/view.asp?id=319
This is an article from Gregg Letts an Australian long pimple coach and blogger. Towards the end of the article he describes the different types of pimple playing styles. As Dusty suggested, try to work out what exact style of long pimple technique you are interested in first and go from there.

Good Luck
Rob

One thing to consider is that if you are in the mid-lower levels (under 1600), then you will rarely get into loop/chop rallies with anyone because most people do not hone the skill of looping heavy chopped underspin until that level. Instead, you will get into pushing matches which keeps you at the table. I (and many on here) struggled with our identity in that regard. At my level, still 1600s, I still get into those types of matches but far less often than when I was 1400 and lower.

So, if you have aspirations of being like Joo Se Hyuk, you may be disappointed that your actual games will not reflect that style of play. Until you get to play against players above a certain level, it's better IMO to use a 0.5mm sponged LP to afford you the possibility of staying at the table, as well as dropping back and chopping should you get the right opponent. The sponge add grip, but the topsheet also is a factor. Some pips have more grip in the topsheet itself than others. FL3, P-1R, P-4 are all grippy in the topsheets alone. 388-1, Neptune, Meteorite, are less grippy. I think a great starting LP, cheap and good from 1000 usatt to 2100 usatt is Giant Dragon Meteorite in 0.5mm. Just enough grip to keep the opponent honest when chopping, good in the short game, hits, and you can pushblock and chop block well with it. My friend Fred out here has been up to 2100 level with that rubber, he chops well off the table, but it's his offense with the LPs that wins him games. No need for him to change to the more popular chopping pips. Also good is Easy P in 0.5mm, same reasons.

Even against 1700+ players, they will often push one, loop one, and your ball never gets the spin you hope for and they will keep you at the table.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

You're right, but like you said, "Trying new stuff is fun"! I've enjoyed taking what I've learnt in the past 3 months of using LP's and seeing what each rubber does and seeing if potentially fits my game better. That said, I need to stop as I don't have a clear path of what my "game" truly is right now as I'm still working on the fundamentals.



Thank you kindly for compliment! Serving is a constant struggle for me. I spend a lot of time on my services at home (practicing alone is no fun), however no matter how much I practice at home, I still flub up on services in matches 1-3 times per match. 2018, I will try and focus on just getting the ball in play so it will force me to utilize my pips for what they're truly intended for.



This, this is something I don't know, and need to work on. I'm assuming this will come when I gain more knowledge of what I can do with my pips.

Right now I'm not a true chopper, I primarily use my pips for service return on my backhand side, and use bumps and chop blocks primarily. My chops mid distance off the table aren't making it over the net, but they're staying low, so that's a positive.

Practice practice practice

How do you like the C & F 3?

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

I'm rather easily amused with trying out every rubber I can get my hands on (Man if someone was a fly on the wall of this conversation.) However I enjoy how you put the rubber choices so simply, I appreciate it!.

I do find that I enjoy a more close to the table play, but enjoy aspects of having sponge on the FL 3. Do you or anyone else have recommendations of close to the table LP that has sponge? I know I could get gangster in .05 or 1.0 but I want to see if there is a rubber people have some experience playing with closer to the table..

Thank you kindly for your time.

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

Rob, thank you so much for taking the time to share some insight, I enjoyed that article quite a bit! Gregg Letts is the man and I've been watching his youtube video's like they're crack, I'm not sure how I missed this article!



Besides the already mentioned Gangster, would you recommend any other Dr. N LP's for close to the table play?

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

Thank you very much for the information kind sir. I've looked at Giant Dragon Meteorite multiple times but have yet to pull the trigger!



I wouldn't say I have aspirations of mimicking my game to JSH, but I have found that my actual games haven't reflected much of that style. Which makes sense now that you've mentioned that most players aren't honed in at looping heavy chopped underspin.

I would like to mimic more of my game to that of Jian Li. With more offensive bumps and chop blocks close to the table and that chop mid distance off the table. However time will only tell if I'm able to mimic that type of play.

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

Lots to choose from but Neubauer No.1 would be my choice simply because I have experience with it. Slow and soft and good for blocking but can still get some grip when chopping. Very good all round. I would still be using it if I had only one setup.

If you like a sponged LP but spend most of your time close to the table it would be best to choose the thinnest sponge available.

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2. S&T Black & White / Armstrong SH-I 1.8 / TSP Curl P3 Alpha R OX

Thank you so for the recommendations and you taking the time out of your day to answer my question(s)! I hope you enjoy your day!

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm

Most of Dr N's long pips are designed for close to the table play. I haven't used that many so I can't comment on them. However I found Viper to be an excellent LP for close to the table style of play. It plays similar to gangster but has better deception and reversal, it's a little faster but has a higher arc/throw angle.

It's hard to to make recommendations for LPs because there are soooooo many inherent variables to consider such as the playing style, the level of skill, blade type, let alone the actual pips themselves. What I recommend is trying some different pips at your local club. At my local TT club me and a few other long pip players regularly swap, trade and give away our old and semi-old pips. This allows us to try a variety of different pips at a much lower cost. Have a chat to a local LP player, chances are they will have a few LP sheets in their bag.

My 2 cents worth:
I personally found feint 3 useful when beginning to use LPs due to its high control, predictability and low speed, so keep on practising with it. It really is good for chopping. When beginning to play with LPs, try to avoid "glassy" low grip pips such as D'techs or Talon as the low grip results in lower control. Having said that, if you can master D'Techs your opponents will suffer.

For my personal style of aggressive pushblocking close to the table with some elements of modern defense I find S&T Hellfire to really suit my game. It has good spin insensitivity on serve receive, control is good, slow speed, easy to play aggressive, bumps, side swipes and flicks. I also enjoy playing with Dr N's Viper as well.

Good Luck!!!

Thank you kindly for your recommendations, I've added the rubber's you've mentioned to my list of rubbers to try out I'm like a kid in a candy store right now

_________________
"When in doubt, chop. If still in doubt, chop again" USATT 1607
I.Tibhar Stratus Power Defense; FH: Victas V > 15 Extra 2.0mm; BH: Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
II. Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 1.9mm; BH:Giant Dragon Meteorite 0.5mm
III. Tibhar Stratus Power Wood; FH: Butterfly Tenergy 05 2.1mm; BH: Victas V > 01 Stiff 2.0mm