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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 08:22 
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I'm a defender who's very tempted right now to experiment with inverted on my forehand. A discussion with a member here has made me realize that I'm not really after more speed, as I already hit hard enough with my Friendship 802 1.5m short pips. What I want is more forgiveness when attacking so I can get my forehand in even if I'm not right at the table. Strong attackers I find can keep me back a lot, meaning it's difficult to get in close enough to attack consistently and effectively with short pips. I can, however, generate a ton of backspin with my short pips on my forehand. This is very handy, as it seems to make the opponent prefer to hit to my long pips. I don't want to lose this.

I realize it depends on the selected rubbers, but I just want to know if inverted can generate as much backspin generally.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 08:27 
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Inverted in general has a higher maximum output of spin generation than short pips in general. However, the grippier short pips like 802, which is what you have, and others like TSP Spinpips, 802-40 variant, and maybe BTY Raystorm can create almost as much spin as inverted with technique in terms of chopping; my BH chopping with TSP SuperSpinPips Chop 2 is actually heavier than my FH chops, even though they are short pips (but the sponge thickness is so high, they might as well be inverted, lol. Check my signature if you wanna see all my equipment ;D)

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 09:10 
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Snowman89 wrote:
I realize it depends on the selected rubbers, but I just want to know if inverted can generate as much backspin generally.


More surface area in contact with the ball means potentially more spin.


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 09:19 
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Inverted has higher spin potential to be created by itself. That's also why loopers use it! Tenergy vs spinpips or even something like joola ultra express aren't really comparable. You can loop with those pips but the spin is less.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 09:37 
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Thanks for both of your replies.

I understand that inverted generates significantly more spin generally (like on serves and top spins), but I wondered if the same applied to backspin when chopping. Logically, it would, but I haven't had recent experience with inverted to know for myself.

Dusty054 wrote:

More surface area in contact with the ball means potentially more spin.


Yea, this is true. So it's probably safe to assume that I could get even more backspin on my chops with inverted, theorteically.

Danthespearton HQ wrote:
Inverted in general has a higher maximum output of spin generation than short pips in general. However, the grippier short pips like 802, which is what you have, and others like TSP Spinpips, 802-40 variant, and maybe BTY Raystorm can create almost as much spin as inverted with technique in terms of chopping; my BH chopping with TSP SuperSpinPips Chop 2 is actually heavier than my FH chops, even though they are short pips (but the sponge thickness is so high, they might as well be inverted, lol. Check my signature if you wanna see all my equipment ;D)


I wonder if even short pips might possibly give a little reversal when chopping, leading to more backspin? That would explain why you get more chop with your short pips. Then again, if that was the case, I would surely be getting backspin on my top spins or blocks when hitting against loops... That is not the case. My top spins with 802 have no disruptive effect at all, so I've been thinking I should just change to inverted and take advantage of its improved offensive control. If I could generate roughly the same amount of backspin, while still being able to vary the spin, it would be a win-win situation for me.

I posted a similar topic a week or two ago and people suggested I try new tensor type short pips first. It seems like a good idea, and up until yesterday that was what I was going to do. Being totally honest with myself, I don't actually see a reason right now to stick with short pips on my forehand. I feel like I'm limiting myself.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 09:43 
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If you are countering a top spin ball with a top spin return you are doing 2 things. 1, changing the direction the ball is travelling in and 2, critically, changing the direction the ball is rotating. Inverted is superior in creating SPIN in this type of shot. When it comes to chopping, you are simply changing the direction of the ball , not the direction the ball is rotating in. I suspect any difference in spin creation is therefore much less. In deed, if the inverted grips the ball better I suspect it could even reduce the amount of spin on the ball as the balls rotation is slowed down if the bat isn't travelling as fast as the ball is rotating. With SP's the ball could slip on the surface of the SP allowing the rotational speed to remain largely unaffected. In away, the greater the in coming spin, the greater it may seem that SP's are better a "creating" the back spin you refer to when in fact they are better at not reducing the rotational speed the ball spins at.

Now if you can chop faster than the ball is spinning, then inverted will grip the ball and potentially add to the speed the ball is rotating at, ie increase the spin.

Ultimately I guess it depends on how fast you like to chop.


Last edited by Debater on 13 Apr 2018, 09:46, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 09:43 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Inverted has higher spin potential to be created by itself. That's also why loopers use it! Tenergy vs spinpips or even something like joola ultra express aren't really comparable. You can loop with those pips but the spin is less.


The interesting thing is a majority of world class defenders also use Tenergy on their forehands in varying thicknesses. I think Joo uses Tenergy 05 1.9mm, the thickness explaining how he can chop with it. If the majority of world class defenders use inverted on their forehands (every elite defender I can think of at the moment), there has to be a pretty good reason for it. I'm not into copying the equipment of pros, but I do believe in patterns. The pattern for the best defenders of recent times has been long pips backhand and fast inverted forehand. Long pips covers defensive control and inverted covers offensive control. It makes total sense. What am I doing with short pips on my forehand? I have no idea to be honest lol. It's just a habit from previously being a hardbat player and I never really gave it any thought until fairly recently. That doesn't mean it doesn't suit my style, but at the moment it would appear it's a bad setup in the long run.

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Last edited by Snowman89 on 13 Apr 2018, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 09:52 
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Debater wrote:
If you are countering a top spin ball with a top spin return you are doing 2 things. 1, changing the direction the ball is travelling in and 2, critically, changing the direction the ball is rotating. Inverted is superior to SPIN this type of shot. When it comes to chopping, you are simply changing the direction of the ball , not the direction the ball is rorating in. I suspect any difference in spin creation is therefore much less. In deed, if the inverted grips the ball better I suspect it could even reduce the amount of spin as the balls rotation is slowed down if the bat isn't travelling as fast as the ball is rotating hence reducing the spin on the ball. With SP, the ball could slip on the surface of the SP allowing the rotational speed to remain largely unaffected. In away, the greater the in coming spin, the greater it may seem that SP's are better a "creating" the back spin you refer to when in fact they are better at not reducing the rotational speed the ball spins at. Now if you can chop faster than the ball sis spinning, then inverted will grip the ball and potentially add to the speed the ball is rotating in, ie increase the spin.

Ultimately I guess it depends on how fast you like to chop.


Very smart analysis. This is an excellent point you make. It's a really good point actually. With inverted then, the amount of backspin may depend on whether you can chop the ball faster than your opponent looped so to speak. Against flatter attackers, inverted might be able to generate more backspin, but against heavy spin players, SPs might produce more backspin (unless you can chop faster than the ball was looped).

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 15:39 
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Snowman89 wrote:
Debater wrote:
If you are countering a top spin ball with a top spin return you are doing 2 things. 1, changing the direction the ball is travelling in and 2, critically, changing the direction the ball is rotating. Inverted is superior to SPIN this type of shot. When it comes to chopping, you are simply changing the direction of the ball , not the direction the ball is rorating in. I suspect any difference in spin creation is therefore much less. In deed, if the inverted grips the ball better I suspect it could even reduce the amount of spin as the balls rotation is slowed down if the bat isn't travelling as fast as the ball is rotating hence reducing the spin on the ball. With SP, the ball could slip on the surface of the SP allowing the rotational speed to remain largely unaffected. In away, the greater the in coming spin, the greater it may seem that SP's are better a "creating" the back spin you refer to when in fact they are better at not reducing the rotational speed the ball spins at. Now if you can chop faster than the ball sis spinning, then inverted will grip the ball and potentially add to the speed the ball is rotating in, ie increase the spin.

Ultimately I guess it depends on how fast you like to chop.


Very smart analysis. This is an excellent point you make. It's a really good point actually. With inverted then, the amount of backspin may depend on whether you can chop the ball faster than your opponent looped so to speak. Against flatter attackers, inverted might be able to generate more backspin, but against heavy spin players, SPs might produce more backspin (unless you can chop faster than the ball was looped).


Yes, that's true -- with inverted chopping, you are essentially starting from scratch each hit. You've got to overcome the incoming spin and put on what you want. Slicker short pips allow some carry through, but generally not enough to really matter. The short pips are just more forgiving when it comes to chopping. The other part I've seen mentioned (above my pay grade...) is that short pips allow you to create a float ball which looks nearly identical to a heavy chopped ball, while using virtually the same stroke as a chopped ball requires.

But the trade off there is less variation, since the slicker SPs can't add as much spin as inverted. Chopping on the forehand shouldn't be too big of an issue though, since the forehand chop can handle just about any ball with any rubber - especially on the amateur level. The other downside is that the SP will reach a "max spin" level earlier than the inverted. It may be easier to chop with, and pass through more incoming spin, but the highest level is lower than with inverted. That's why you generally hear about pros short pip chopping with variations, getting points from mixing heavy spin/dead balls etc. and long pippers do more of the heavy reversal, trying to bury with back spin. Although that's not always the case!

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 22:05 
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skilless_slapper wrote:

Yes, that's true -- with inverted chopping, you are essentially starting from scratch each hit. You've got to overcome the incoming spin and put on what you want. Slicker short pips allow some carry through, but generally not enough to really matter. The short pips are just more forgiving when it comes to chopping. The other part I've seen mentioned (above my pay grade...) is that short pips allow you to create a float ball which looks nearly identical to a heavy chopped ball, while using virtually the same stroke as a chopped ball requires.

But the trade off there is less variation, since the slicker SPs can't add as much spin as inverted. Chopping on the forehand shouldn't be too big of an issue though, since the forehand chop can handle just about any ball with any rubber - especially on the amateur level. The other downside is that the SP will reach a "max spin" level earlier than the inverted. It may be easier to chop with, and pass through more incoming spin, but the highest level is lower than with inverted. That's why you generally hear about pros short pip chopping with variations, getting points from mixing heavy spin/dead balls etc. and long pippers do more of the heavy reversal, trying to bury with back spin. Although that's not always the case!


If you're essentially starting from scratch with each chop with inverted, would that mean that variations in spin would also be that much greater than with SPs? As in, a dead float will have even less spin and a heavy chop will have even more backspin (with inverted)? The trade of here would be that it's harder to disguise the spin?

I have noticed on many occasions how easy it is to disguise levels of backspin with SPs. When I do practice drills I often find it very difficult to send my opponent the same amount of backspin each time, as any slight change in my stroke results in more or less backspin, and yes, the trajectory is very similar. It's a great quality actually, as in matches it makes it very easy to vary the spin and make it hard for your opponent to read it.

However, I'm not putting in effort to find the right equipment so I can play at the same level. I'm trying to think ahead and I want to get used to a setup now that will have a higher level cap so to speak. As I haven't properly returned to active competition yet, now is definitely the time to experiment. Before, I had short pips on both my backhand and forehand, so I had control over chops and attacks to a certain degree. Changing to long pips on my backhand has given me greater defensive control, so I think balancing out my equipment is the next step. More spin and speed on my forehand, particularly spin, seems to be where I should be headed, and inverted would seem to be best for that. I think I need to try inverted again for myself and then consider whether its pros and cons work out for the better with my game. The question then is which inverted rubber...

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 00:26 
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I think sp's are better at 'scrubbing off' spin, so the dead balls are easier to create there at times.

Previously, people said I had a killer backhand but my forehand wasn't much to note... then I had my wrist tendinitis flare up (due to banana flicking obsession!) and was no longer able to play with inverted on the backhand aggressively. So I spent about 4 months drilling on the robot with my forehand, mainly looping against back spin -- which is quite a different stroke compared to chopping! As before, all I did was chop/block/slam with my forehand using pips or anti.

Fast forward another number of months, and now people say my forehand is a real killer... while my backhand is just very good at controlling shots! Since I had to basically re-tool my game and go from reverse modern defender (attacking backhand with chopping forehand) to forehand attacker and backhand blocker/pusher/chopper.

Point being, the forehand inverted looping did require some time to learn correctly (had a coach assist with the body mechanics and waist rotation) but now after I've gotten it to an acceptable level... I don't think I would change back to pips on the forehand at all, unless doing an anti blocking on the backhand game and forehand smashing at the table for fun. The inverted gives you many more options, from all distances. You can add in fishing, side spin, heavier pushes, twiddling to give a bigger change on fh/bh etc. and as I found, looping the ball just feels great! :lol:

I use tenergy 64 fx or tenergy 80 fx in 1.7 on the forehand for my modern defense setup. Very spinny without being too bouncy. I still tinker with the backhand, since I miss the offensive abilities I used to have there.

***I also use the joola ultra express or similar spinny pips on forehand at times, since those can loop backspin when close to the table. And if you like to chop/loop pushes, it is still a good option. It just limits your away from the table options.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 02:16 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
I think sp's are better at 'scrubbing off' spin, so the dead balls are easier to create there at times.

Previously, people said I had a killer backhand but my forehand wasn't much to note... then I had my wrist tendinitis flare up (due to banana flicking obsession!) and was no longer able to play with inverted on the backhand aggressively. So I spent about 4 months drilling on the robot with my forehand, mainly looping against back spin -- which is quite a different stroke compared to chopping! As before, all I did was chop/block/slam with my forehand using pips or anti.

Fast forward another number of months, and now people say my forehand is a real killer... while my backhand is just very good at controlling shots! Since I had to basically re-tool my game and go from reverse modern defender (attacking backhand with chopping forehand) to forehand attacker and backhand blocker/pusher/chopper.

Point being, the forehand inverted looping did require some time to learn correctly (had a coach assist with the body mechanics and waist rotation) but now after I've gotten it to an acceptable level... I don't think I would change back to pips on the forehand at all, unless doing an anti blocking on the backhand game and forehand smashing at the table for fun. The inverted gives you many more options, from all distances. You can add in fishing, side spin, heavier pushes, twiddling to give a bigger change on fh/bh etc. and as I found, looping the ball just feels great! :lol:

I use tenergy 64 fx or tenergy 80 fx in 1.7 on the forehand for my modern defense setup. Very spinny without being too bouncy. I still tinker with the backhand, since I miss the offensive abilities I used to have there.

***I also use the joola ultra express or similar spinny pips on forehand at times, since those can loop backspin when close to the table. And if you like to chop/loop pushes, it is still a good option. It just limits your away from the table options.


Thanks for sharing :). Your journey with equipment and changes in technique is basically what I need to prepare myself for by switching back to inverted. It will take time. I've had years of playing with short pips now so my technique will need some altering for sure. I may even have to learn brand new strokes to fully take advantage of what you can do with inverted. As you say though, inverted gives you more options.

Tenergy really seems to be the number 1 choice for both defenders and attackers.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 06:00 
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Many of the knock offs work just as well, they have a different feel though. The tibhar series or bluefire etc.

I tried using chop rubbers like tackiness chop, juic 999 elite defense, tibhar super defense etc. And they work fine for chopping but not great for offense. I also don't think they impart as much spin. They have better control and handle speed better is about it. Classic defenders get on fine with them though. If you plan to be a heavy attacker then I'd suggest skipping them.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 08:05 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Many of the knock offs work just as well, they have a different feel though. The tibhar series or bluefire etc.

I tried using chop rubbers like tackiness chop, juic 999 elite defense, tibhar super defense etc. And they work fine for chopping but not great for offense. I also don't think they impart as much spin. They have better control and handle speed better is about it. Classic defenders get on fine with them though. If you plan to be a heavy attacker then I'd suggest skipping them.


Yea, if the point of using inverted on your forehand as a defender is to increase attacking possibilities, slow rubbers like Tackiness Chop are out of the question.

As I first need to test whether inverted is indeed the way to go (which it definitely seems to be, but still), paying a premium for Tenergy straight out the gate isn't something I want to do.

These are the rubbers I'm considering:
- TIBHAR Evolution MX-P
- Donic Bluefire M1
- Donic Bluefire M3
- Victas Rubber VS > 401

The last rubber is aimed at defenders, but I've seen some good reviews and it's not meant to be that slow, but obviously nowhere near as fast as Tenergy or the ones on the list. Still, from what I've read, the two rubbers here I most want to try are Evolution MX-P and the Victas Rubber. If I'm working my way towards Tenergy, maybe the Victas rubber is the best simply because it would get me used to inverted again without a bump up in power, as it appears to have similar speed to my 802 (802 is probably faster though). I could then transition to Tenergy (probably 05) if it's successful. That's my thinking right now.

If you have any thoughts or suggestions, I would of course appreciate it. I'm definitely now though going to get a sheet of inverted for my forehand this month and give it time, as it's going to be difficult at first.

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PostPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 11:57 
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If you like tacky, the skyline or hurricane rubbers are good and only around $30 usd. Chinese defenders generally use those, while the euro choppers or korean use tenergy. I hate having a rubber coated in dirt/dust after so little play time!

Tenergy has good durability/longevity and is nice, even for the price imo.

Bluefire is kind of a big ol' chunk of rubber, same with the JP series. Shiono chopped with one of the bluefires or JPs, I forget which one. Any of them will do fine. I like tenergy fx for the high spin, light weight, and consistency. It just has a different feel compared to the others, and so far, it's the one I play the best with since I've adjusted to how it functions and whatnot. I'm curious to try the mx-s rubber, for no real reason other than to experiment as I'm perfectly happy with the tenergy.

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