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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 08:13 
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speedplay wrote:
...I think it is ITTF's responsibility to make rules that can be enforced, cause making rules that they can't enforce is like giving the cheaters the upper hand.


I would say, it is not quite correct to say, they can't enforce the "minimum friction level" rule.

It is true, they can not control it at tournaments. At they same time, they can effectively prevent manufacturers from producing those rubbers. They can test rubber without blade. That is what they do in the process of authorisation, as far as I know.


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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 22:37 
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speedplay wrote:
I agree with Adham's view, I wouldn't feel good about my self if I won due to cheating. MNNB, yes, if one use a tuner, then the other must use it to compete at the same level, but what if this is the excuse everyone uses to them self to use it?

That is the excuse. There is little if any testing at most USATT tournaments, for example. I know for a fact that there are a lot of players tuning their own rubbers or buying professionally treated ones. I wouldn't feel good if I lost to a player using the same rubber as me whose shots seemed harder and spinnier. Now there would always be the suspicion.

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 22:48 
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Smartguy wrote:
speedplay wrote:
...I think it is ITTF's responsibility to make rules that can be enforced, cause making rules that they can't enforce is like giving the cheaters the upper hand.


I would say, it is not quite correct to say, they can't enforce the "minimum friction level" rule.

It is true, they can not control it at tournaments. At they same time, they can effectively prevent manufacturers from producing those rubbers. They can test rubber without blade. That is what they do in the process of authorisation, as far as I know.


Yes, you are correct. Some rubbers that failed the friction test actually lost the authorization. The main issue is the post-factory treatment, which is done mainly by players, but also sometimes by some resellers (retailers).

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 22:52 
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speedplay wrote:
Smartguy wrote:
speedplay wrote:
...I think it is ITTF's responsibility to make rules that can be enforced, cause making rules that they can't enforce is like giving the cheaters the upper hand.


I would say, it is not quite correct to say, they can't enforce the "minimum friction level" rule.

It is true, they can not control it at tournaments. At they same time, they can effectively prevent manufacturers from producing those rubbers. They can test rubber without blade. That is what they do in the process of authorisation, as far as I know.


Yes and no, they can "prevent" manufacturers from getting these treated rubbers to pass the authorisation, but what about those who buys in stock of a legal rubber, then treat it and sell? These rubbers are already out there.

I agree with Adham's view, I wouldn't feel good about my self if I won due to cheating. MNNB, yes, if one use a tuner, then the other must use it to compete at the same level, but what if this is the excuse everyone uses to them self to use it? If everyone uses legal equipment, then there is no edge to be had. Players caught cheating should get a hefty ban and have their name published so that everyone will know who they are.


We are using a step-by-step approach. The first step is to "educate" instead of to "punish", once the education and transition period is over, then of course we will impose harsh penalties, and may use some methods as you suggest to embarrass the culprits. But let's give it time first for everyone to adjust. We are also targeting the young generation, which will be the future role-models. Let's give it time. At the manufacturing level we are systematically eradicating any product that does not meet our rules. We will go the next step to the next layer in the distribution chain soon. One step at a time.

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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2009, 03:23 
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adham wrote:
But let's give it time first for everyone to adjust.


This is, how I see the process of adjustment from my experience.

First stage. "Frictionless" players tried to find other pimples, spending a lot of money with little success. Their competition results dropped.

Second stage. Some of them decided to treat their pimples. Their results were better again. Almost no one was caught, because no reliable test was possible.

Third stage. More players stop spending money in vain for testing and treat their rubbers. Still it is impossible to control friction at tournaments. Hence players, who follow the rule, are at a disadvantage.


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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2009, 03:33 
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Smartguy wrote:

it is impossible to control friction at tournaments. Hence players, who follow the rule, are at a disadvantage.


And this is why I agree with other views expressed earlier. That is the problem with laws that are unforceable, just as speed glue laws are uneforceable at the lower levels of the game. Why should 'honest' players be penalised by people who will bend / break rules. It is my strong opinion that if you can't enforce a law don't make it.

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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2009, 04:14 
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antipip wrote:
And this is why I agree with other views expressed earlier. That is the problem with laws that are unforceable, just as speed glue laws are uneforceable at the lower levels of the game. Why should 'honest' players be penalised by people who will bend / break rules. It is my strong opinion that if you can't enforce a law don't make it.


Here I would like to add something about analogies with speed control by the police, doping control etc.

Speed control by the police is possible. Doping control is possible, with a few exceptions, because of technological development. They do not need to control everybody. Random controls by the police work. The same goes for doping.

In case of friction we have a different quality: friction control at tournaments is practically impossible. And this create disadvantage for those, who follow the rule.

Hence there are two factors, which are responsible for the mess: 1) some players treat their rubber (before the ban it was not necessary) and 2) no control at tournaments is possible (which was clear before the ban).


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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2009, 06:46 
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The other thing is speed laws and doping laws have some moral high ground as they are for public safety. The ITTF can take the moral high ground on the VOC issue, as well.

The minimum friction rule, however, has no moral authority, since it was designed to eradicate a style of play and is perceived to be put into place to "get" Herbert Neubauer.

England and Sweden recognized this and for the good of the game took the high ground away from the ITTF on this issue.

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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2009, 10:26 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
The other thing is speed laws and doping laws have some moral high ground as they are for public safety. The ITTF can take the moral high ground on the VOC issue, as well.


The problem with the VOC issue is, that Adham failed to present evidence, that normal usage of speed glue is dangerous for health. Neither on this forum, nor on two others.

Generally speaking, if something is banned for health reasons without evidence, I personally can not rule out, that health reasons where just used as a vehicle to gain majority.


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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2009, 15:26 
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Smartguy wrote:
antipip wrote:
And this is why I agree with other views expressed earlier. That is the problem with laws that are unforceable, just as speed glue laws are uneforceable at the lower levels of the game. Why should 'honest' players be penalised by people who will bend / break rules. It is my strong opinion that if you can't enforce a law don't make it.


Here I would like to add something about analogies with speed control by the police, doping control etc.

Speed control by the police is possible. Doping control is possible, with a few exceptions, because of technological development. They do not need to control everybody. Random controls by the police work. The same goes for doping.

In case of friction we have a different quality: friction control at tournaments is practically impossible. And this create disadvantage for those, who follow the rule.

Hence there are two factors, which are responsible for the mess: 1) some players treat their rubber (before the ban it was not necessary) and 2) no control at tournaments is possible (which was clear before the ban).


This is simple an plain common sense. However, I'm starting to wonder whether such evidence can hit Adham...He'll come back to you with a new analogy, showing nothing except that he's 200% convinced about the rightness of his track.
"Educate, then punish"...Strange...Shall I remind you that Adrian Crisan (from Romania) and Chen (from Austria) have already been Dqd from ITTF event. They must haved passed the educational step...While all top chineses are freely admitting they use Haïfu oil, they musn't have been graduated...Maybe ITTF dares to do things against players comming from "small" countries that they wouldn't against "top notch". I'll really start to believe that ITTF has got the nerves to enforce its policy, the day they will Dq one top chinese in an ITT pro tour. I might be wrong but I think it's far from comming.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009, 22:22 
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heck,I'm not going to participate in any tourneys worth mentioning.

I don't care a hoot about the "ittf president", nor about the ittf.

I don't know anything about bat doping....'treating rubbers' and the like.

But please, I would like to know how a treated rubber is like.

Now could somebody kindly tell me how to make friction LPs frictionless and why would anybody want to do so.

And also how to treat inverted and short pimples rubbers and the resons for it..

Arrigato gozaimasu!


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2009, 14:55 
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adham wrote:
haggisv wrote:
Adham

There's a rumour floating around about the ITTF's connections with a 'gambling business' BWIN and that all the rights to broadcast major table tennis tournaments through the internet have now been "sold" to BWIN.

Can you advice if there's any truth to this, and what (if any) implication there would be on getting the events streamed through the internet?

Thank you!


The rumour is not correct, the ITTF owns its own rights for all its events and will continue to show them on itTV free of charge for as long as we can afford it. The more people watch itTV the more we can gather statistics and sell the advertising at a higher price. Our commitment is to show on itTV all of our events free of charge in 2009. I hope we can do the same in 2010 and beyond.

I hope you enjoyed the Japan Open that just concluded today. All finals (as well as many other matches) are available on itTV (http://www.ittf.com)




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There, was adham Sharara lying?
BWIN is the ONLY Live broadcaster on the internet.


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2009, 01:22 
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speedplay wrote:
I fail to see why you think Adham was lying... He said that ITTF owned the rights to all their events, he never said they owned them exclusively


My guess is, that ITTF own the rights to all their events and nobody else owns these rights. ITTF can sell these rights exclusively or non exclusively.


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2009, 01:45 
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Smartguy wrote:
speedplay wrote:
I fail to see why you think Adham was lying... He said that ITTF owned the rights to all their events, he never said they owned them exclusively


My guess is, that ITTF own the rights to all their events and nobody else owns these rights. ITTF can sell these rights exclusively or non exclusively.


This is absolutely correct. ITTF owns the TV and internet rights to all its own events. We sell some rights exclusively and we do sell some rights to agencies or TV networks on a "non-exclusive" basis. We also sell the Internet rights mainly on a non-exclusive basis because we want as wide a distribution as possible, and also we want to keep the right to show it on our own itTV. One of our clients that has bought non-exclusive rights, has the right to resell to others, and B-win is one of their customers. B-win is NOT an ITTF direct customer. I have inquired with our technical people and they said that all our Pro Tour events, in fact ALL our events will be on itTV but usually from the first round on. So not the preliminaries. The China Open will be on itTV for sure, so will all our events. This is a free service to our fans.

I would also like to announce that Episode 3 of "World of Table Tennis" is now ready and will be on itTV in a couple of days.

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PostPosted: 17 Aug 2009, 16:12 
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Adham, is SpinMax now banned by the ITTF under the rule of not being allowed to change the characteristics of the rubber, or is it still ok to use?

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