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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2009, 22:50 
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adham wrote:
c) There is no set number.


you just admitted that there is no standardised protocol and thus these tests werde performed in an arbitrary fashion. you also stated that these tests were als triggered off by other manufacturers. this combination of facts sheds a very bad light.

if the ittf wants to regain reputation i would highly recommend to create a standardised protocol including the amount of samples tested and also publishing the results of these tests. to this day no one knows the exact friction levels measured.

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2009, 23:06 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:
c) There is no set number.


you just admitted that there is no standardised protocol and thus these tests werde performed in an arbitrary fashion. you also stated that these tests were als triggered off by other manufacturers. this combination of facts sheds a very bad light.

if the ittf wants to regain reputation i would highly recommend to create a standardised protocol including the amount of samples tested and also publishing the results of these tests. to this day no one knows the exact friction levels measured.


If you're going to quote Adham, it's only fair you quote the complete answer, not just part of it, as the rest of the answer does put things into context:

Quote:
c) There is no set number. Of course if a rubber is found illegal based on one set of tests, then further tests are conducted systematically from random locations (where the samples are taken). Often, as you state, it is a certain bad batch from the manufactiurer, and then the ITTF works closely with the dirtributor and the manufacturer to solve the problem.


If the sheet has "variations of friction level on the same sheet surface", then the actual measurements probably don't mean much.

I do agree there could be a lot more information made available, and the process more standardised and transparent, so that the manufacturer can choose to carry out test themselves, or get an independent party to confirm the results...

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2009, 23:56 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:
c) There is no set number.


you just admitted that there is no standardised protocol and thus these tests werde performed in an arbitrary fashion. you also stated that these tests were als triggered off by other manufacturers. this combination of facts sheds a very bad light.

if the ittf wants to regain reputation i would highly recommend to create a standardised protocol including the amount of samples tested and also publishing the results of these tests. to this day no one knows the exact friction levels measured.


What are you talking about? We do random tests all the time, but if we receive complaints we will target the product under complaint. If the product is fine it would pass the tests, in this case it was found not to be fine and we did further tests and informed the company accordingly. What does it matter who complained, and why would that be negative. What counts is our tests. We would have tested randomly that product in any case when its turn would come. So, I don't understand what bad light? In fact, it's the opposite, it shows to the players and the manufacturers that we try to implement our rules seriously. And of course we give the results to the party concerned (manufacturer). We do not publish the results publicly.

As for your further comment regarding a protocol for testing, of course we have one and we have a detailed one, but as I said, this belongs to us. As long as the manufacturers respect the criteria set for producing rubbers, then there is no problem. It is our job then to check the best we can to ensure that our rules are respected and that the product that carries OUR logo is according to our criteria and rules. Those that do not wish to follow, they just do not need to use our logo, they are free to sell their product without our logo.

Let me be clear, it is ITTF logo that the manufacturers apply to use in the authorization process, it is ITTF criteria, and it is ITTF testing methods. 99% of the manufacturers comply and produce perfectly legal equipment. Those that do not wish to comply are free to do so, but they CANNOT use the ITTF logo.

I hope this clarifies matters for you.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 02:17 
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adham wrote:


We do not publish the results publicly.


that is precisely what sheds bad light: lack of information.

adham wrote:


adham wrote:
As for your further comment regarding a protocol for testing, of course we have one and we have a detailed one, but as I said, this belongs to us.


in your last post you clearly stated that there was no set number, thus there is no standardized protocol concerning quantities and therefore there is a degree of arbitrary testing going on. its also baffling that the ittf isnt willing to disclose this protocol as i see no reason to keep it a secret other than creating a playground of intransparency.

the whole problem of the ittf as a whole is that lack of competition creates systems that go against the players involved. if there was competition for the ittf on an organizational level (without glue ban etc) the ittf would need to change its way of thinking quickly.

and again: to this day no one knows the levels of friction measured. and again: trust my word for it, a great deal of players would have appreciated a public announcement when dealing wit these issues, i`m just speaking out on what angered a majority of players that were affected.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 02:56 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:


We do not publish the results publicly.


that is precisely what sheds bad light: lack of information.

adham wrote:


adham wrote:
As for your further comment regarding a protocol for testing, of course we have one and we have a detailed one, but as I said, this belongs to us.


in your last post you clearly stated that there was no set number, thus there is no standardized protocol concerning quantities and therefore there is a degree of arbitrary testing going on. its also baffling that the ittf isnt willing to disclose this protocol as i see no reason to keep it a secret other than creating a playground of intransparency.

the whole problem of the ittf as a whole is that lack of competition creates systems that go against the players involved. if there was competition for the ittf on an organizational level (without glue ban etc) the ittf would need to change its way of thinking quickly.

and again: to this day no one knows the levels of friction measured. and again: trust my word for it, a great deal of players would have appreciated a public announcement when dealing wit these issues, i`m just speaking out on what angered a majority of players that were affected.


I am sorry, I cannot continue this debate with you. You asked the questions and I answered them. The ITTF provides ample information to the manufacturers to produce their equipment, those that follow the criteria are authorized or approved. Then we test on a random basis to ensure that our criteria are met. This is a very simple system and it works very well. As I said, with very few exceptions manufacturers are able to meet the ITTF criteria and standards.

I am sorry that you are not happy, and of course you are welcome, as everyone is, to create the necessary competition for the ITTF. It's a free world.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 03:24 
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adham wrote:

I am sorry that you are not happy, and of course you are welcome, as everyone is, to create the necessary competition for the ITTF. It's a free world.


this last cynical sentence is priceless. thank you.

you are not aware that you werent leading this debate with me, but with a great amount of players whos view i have expressed, which is documented in various tt-forums around the globe. all they want is transparency and consistancy. by refusing to publish a harmless protocol and by admitting that there are no set numbers concerning the testing samples it once again has become clear that transparency and consistancy are two areas where the ittf needs a lot of work. it is standard protocol to publish maximum information when playing material is banned or when there are technical irregularities in many other sports.

normally professional organisations are interested in improving communication and accept criticism, you choose to ignore it. this is not about me and you, you fail to see this.

fine with me ;) this just underlines the impression many have of the ittf and the current officials running it. maybe you should spend more time reading what others have to say in various other forums, i know few that have anything positive to say about the ittf, not an insult, just a mere fact.

i also wonder about the thread concerning "how to promote table tennis" where you seem interested in promoting our sport: i watched the european championships with non tabletennis playing friends the other night...during the game ovtcharov and akkerstrom there was a hassle about two of his bats which were confiscated..my friends had no idea what was going on and actually lost interest very quickly. having controversies about whether a sponge and rubber has a thickness of 4.0, or4.1 might be thrilling for referees and ittf officials, but its really boring for spectators (who couldnt care less) and annoying for players. this sport is becoming less and less liberal, lets skip the bits inbetween and implement a "hardbat rule" directly? just a thought.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 03:47 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:

I am sorry that you are not happy, and of course you are welcome, as everyone is, to create the necessary competition for the ITTF. It's a free world.


this last cynical sentence is priceless. thank you.

you are not aware that you werent leading this debate with me, but with a great amount of players whos view i have expressed, which is documented in various tt-forums around the globe. all they want is transparency and consistancy. by refusing to publish a harmless protocol and by admitting that there are no set numbers concerning the testing samples it once again has become clear that transparency and consistancy are two areas where the ittf needs a lot of work. it is standard protocol to publish maximum information when playing material is banned or when there are technical irregularities in many other sports.

normally professional organisations are interested in improving communication and accept criticism, you choose to ignore it. this is not about me and you, you fail to see this.

fine with me ;) this just underlines the impression many have of the ittf and the current officials running it. maybe you should spend more time reading what others have to say in various other forums, i know few that have anything positive to say about the ittf, not an insult, just a mere fact.

i also wonder about the thread concerning "how to promote table tennis" where you seem interested in promoting our sport: i watched the european championships with non tabletennis playing friends the other night...during the game ovtcharov and akkerstrom there was a hassle about two of his bats which were confiscated..my friends had no idea what was going on and actually lost interest very quickly. having controversies about whether a sponge and rubber has a thickness of 4.0, or4.1 might be thrilling for referees and ittf officials, but its really boring for spectators (who couldnt care less) and annoying for players. this sport is becoming less and less liberal, lets skip the bits inbetween and implement a "hardbat rule" directly? just a thought.


Thank you for your input. I do respect your opinion, believe me. But I cannot start a debate. You asked questions and I answered them. I know you do not like the answers but there is nothing I can do about that. As for your views representing "many" of the table tennis community, maybe you are right. But they definitely do not represent the "majority" of the table tennis community.

A few days ago, a famous tennis player lost the last point of a match based on a lines-woman call. This is sport.

I now have to catch a flight, so I bid you adieu.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 07:17 
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adham wrote:

As for your views representing "many" of the table tennis community, maybe you are right. But they definitely do not represent the "majority" of the table tennis community.

A few days ago, a famous tennis player lost the last point of a match based on a lines-woman call. This is sport.



again, i`m not expressing my views, im expressing the views of the clear majority of long pimple players that were affected.the only reason i continued this "debate" was because many players encouraged me to do so, the current situation doesnt affect me (any longer), its just that i`m amazed at the decisions taken. the view on the ittf definitely does represent the majority of players, whilst the majority isnt concerned with the frictionless pimples ban, the other half really is strongly bothered by speedglue ban etc., thus both segments of players really have had enough and are fed up. with all respect, if the players would directly elect the ittf president, you wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell, to put it bluntly and of course i know that its not you that calls the shots, but none the less, you have to stand up for what the ittf decides ;)

i dont understand the analogy with the serena willams match. sorry.

where we agree: lets give other people the oppertunity to ask questions.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 09:44 
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AA wrote:
i dont understand the analogy with the serena willams match. sorry.


You don't understand the analogy? Then try again! Try harder! This will help you to draw your attention away from the matter discussed. :D

I hope, this harmless piece of humour won't drive the moderators mad. :oops: :)


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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 12:34 
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Mr Sharara,

1- Why referees are not aloud to use camera video to see the replay when they are not sure about a situation ?

For example, at the last World Championship 2009, the match Mens Doubles Quarter Finals (Kishikawa Seiya + Mizutani Sun against Gao Ning + Yang Zi) when the score was 9/8 in the fifth set:
we can see at the replay that the ball touch the table but because of the angle, it was difficult to make a decision for the referee.

Even if the Japanese players were pointing the replay on the screen at the ceiling showing that the ball touched, the referee did not use it. It took almost seven minutes from referees to maintain their bad decision in front of thousands of people and in front of millions of people around the world watching the television and the video. Moreover, there was miniature video cameras attached to each side of the net. They could use them to give a good decision.

Each point are more important than before considering that now it is eleven points instead of twenty one. A bad decision could have a serious financial impact for international players and manufacturers and it is increasing more and more.

In other sports like hockey, tennis, etc., referees are looking at the replay for good decisions.

2-The table tennis is a professional sport, don’t you think that it is about time to advance and use camera video like other sports ?


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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 14:18 
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Quote:
- Why referees are not aloud to use camera video to see the replay when they are not sure about a situation ?

For example, at the last World Championship 2009, the match Mens Doubles Quarter Finals (Kishikawa Seiya + Mizutani Sun against Gao Ning + Yang Zi) when the score was 9/8 in the fifth set:
we can see at the replay that the ball touch the table but because of the angle, it was difficult to make a decision for the referee.


Yes that's a good idea or maybe they can have 2 challangers a match like in Tennis

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 19:10 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:

As for your views representing "many" of the table tennis community, maybe you are right. But they definitely do not represent the "majority" of the table tennis community.

A few days ago, a famous tennis player lost the last point of a match based on a lines-woman call. This is sport.



again, i`m not expressing my views, im expressing the views of the clear majority of long pimple players that were affected.the only reason i continued this "debate" was because many players encouraged me to do so, the current situation doesnt affect me (any longer), its just that i`m amazed at the decisions taken. the view on the ittf definitely does represent the majority of players, whilst the majority isnt concerned with the frictionless pimples ban, the other half really is strongly bothered by speedglue ban etc., thus both segments of players really have had enough and are fed up. with all respect, if the players would directly elect the ittf president, you wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell, to put it bluntly and of course i know that its not you that calls the shots, but none the less, you have to stand up for what the ittf decides ;)

i dont understand the analogy with the serena willams match. sorry.

where we agree: lets give other people the oppertunity to ask questions.


OK, thanks. The analogy about Tennis was in relation to the comment you made about umpires.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 19:15 
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Connor wrote:
Mr Sharara,

1- Why referees are not aloud to use camera video to see the replay when they are not sure about a situation ?

For example, at the last World Championship 2009, the match Mens Doubles Quarter Finals (Kishikawa Seiya + Mizutani Sun against Gao Ning + Yang Zi) when the score was 9/8 in the fifth set:
we can see at the replay that the ball touch the table but because of the angle, it was difficult to make a decision for the referee.

Even if the Japanese players were pointing the replay on the screen at the ceiling showing that the ball touched, the referee did not use it. It took almost seven minutes from referees to maintain their bad decision in front of thousands of people and in front of millions of people around the world watching the television and the video. Moreover, there was miniature video cameras attached to each side of the net. They could use them to give a good decision.

Each point are more important than before considering that now it is eleven points instead of twenty one. A bad decision could have a serious financial impact for international players and manufacturers and it is increasing more and more.

In other sports like hockey, tennis, etc., referees are looking at the replay for good decisions.

2-The table tennis is a professional sport, don’t you think that it is about time to advance and use camera video like other sports ?


Yes, we are working on it. But it is more complex than you think. To do it properly we would need at least 4 cameras per table, one each in the line of each side, and one each for each end. Of course the two sides are more relevant than the ends, but to be consistent we would need cameras on the ends as well for "soft" edges. Then we would need that for each table and for all matches to be recorded using each of the 4 cameras per table. In any case we are working on it.

In Tennis it is much simpler as it is a ball "space-time" tracing system with cameras placed all around one or two courts only, that translate the flight of the ball electronically. The trick is that the tennis court does not move, whereas the TT table moves. For the tennis system to work the TT table would have to be fixed. This is not allowed. The reason the TT table is NOT fixed is in case a player comes running into it, it needs to move to minimize injury.

So, as you can see, it is more complicated that we think. nevertheless we are working on it.

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2009, 19:19 
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rodderz wrote:
Quote:
- Why referees are not aloud to use camera video to see the replay when they are not sure about a situation ?

For example, at the last World Championship 2009, the match Mens Doubles Quarter Finals (Kishikawa Seiya + Mizutani Sun against Gao Ning + Yang Zi) when the score was 9/8 in the fifth set:
we can see at the replay that the ball touch the table but because of the angle, it was difficult to make a decision for the referee.


Yes that's a good idea or maybe they can have 2 challangers a match like in Tennis


Yes, I agree, a very good idea.

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PostPosted: 19 Sep 2009, 01:27 
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bbkon wrote:
Hi Adam Ive heard a rumour about ITTF planning to ban short pips? is that true. How come liu guoliang Spinpips was banned if this pips were used since 70's.

bbkon


Adham would you answer the question (above) i posted weeks ago about the pips?


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