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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 04:10 
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Iron Pips
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I am watching Joo against Samsonov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eGeEitbZ-Q) and wondering how it comes Joo can run towards the table at Samsonovs drop shot and push with his pips without Sammy killing that push. How can he create back spin enough so that it can't be killed? I have been using DTecS 1,2 mm for 5 months now and I am having troubles generating spin on a no spin ball (serves mostly) or on a drop shot. Lars Borg at Japsko said in a newsletter (http://www.japsko.se/content/9-nya_belag) concerning impressions from Rotterdam that Joo and Park Mi Young is using DTecS with 1,6 mm sponge (this is no news to most of this forum's readers) because of its increased ability to generate spin (at least this is how I interpret what Lars wrote). This was according the the players themselfs.

My question: is it more easy to generate spin with the thicker sponge than with 1,2 mm? What else differs? The sponge is medium soft and fast on high impact but slow when chopping. Is this different with the thicker one? What happens with the spin reversal? Since the sponge is a little hard, it feels like it is not much in use on light handed blocks or service returns, and therfore a thicker sponge might not make a huge difference? Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 05:30 
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I'm having he same problem, but that's with OX. The biggest problem is that I can't put enough spin on the first chop, like when receiving long serves and such, it's also hard to keep it low. The best player in our club, who also happens to be ridicoulusly good against pips, always keeps feeding me long, fast and deep serves down to my BH and when I chop these he just goes for the winner which he usually puts on the table. I'm thinking of rying 1.2mm but I'm not sure I want to give up the game at the table. :sweat:

I wouldn't think that 1.6mm can create that much more compared to 1.2mm on a push since you don't activate all the sponge. I've also heard that the reason Joo are using 1.6mm is because of the speed rather than the spin manipulation abilities.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 06:18 
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Auzcar, why don't you try with a thin sponge? I have never tried DTecS in ox, but with most pips it is mostly a matter of how much you dare to opend your bat and how hard you dare to push. With DTecS sponged version you can push very hard and make the ball look like it carries lots of back spin (but it doesn't). With a grippy lp (like Akkadi L1) you can do the same and generate lots of back spin. However, this is of course very difficult (if even possible) on a fast no-spin ball. What you need to do is either twiddle and loop some times (not every time), learn to attack with the pips, chop block or chop from distance. Another thing that could work is to try to stop the ball, making a very short and no-spin return. I got plenty of those serves from a short pimple bat (802 1,8 mm) yesterday and I made a kind of chop block to his elbow and managed to keep it low and fast. But that is probably easier to do wit the sponged version. I also have the option to loop with the pips, very difficult for my opponent to read what kind of spin that shot carries.

About the 1,6 mm, I just recieved an e-mail from Lars at Japsko. He has not yet tried the sponged versions (I think he plays more of a blocking and all round game, not much distance chopping). But he said that the information he had gotten at Rotterdam was that it was possible to make more spin with the thicker sponge. The plot thickens.... Any more input?

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 06:49 
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The problem with a thin sponge is that it wouldn't give me that much more possibilities to create spin but it would take away most parts of the "at-the-table"-game. Then I would personally choose to focus totally on chopping instead and go for a 1.2mm sponge. I feel that there's more potential in the modern defensive game compared to the blocking game but I'm not sure if I want to make that jump now and risk the start of this season or if I should just get used to the chopping game more and then switch to sponge when I'm more used to the tactics and so on. The thing is that so far it's not many players that make me feel like this guy does, totally helpless and with the knowledge that wherever I put the ball it will come back at me in full speed. I think I will just keep playing with OX for a while and perhaps learn to drive with them on his long serves, that will sure keep him more busy. I should probably play more like Sun Jianfei for a while and then feel what's right for me.

Regarding the 1.6mm sponge I would think that you could add more spin on your own when chopping but I can't imagine he difference being that big when your pushing and not digging down into the sponge that much.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 06:59 
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Well, you can't beat them all. Just be glad he is in your club :) . Stick with what makes playing most fun, that will be your winner in the long run.

I think you are right about sponge thickness. But perhaps I would get a little extra dwell-time, but I would loose same amount of control in other shots. Still curious though, but I think I will start with changing to a fresh version of 1.2 mm (I have a spare) and see if the top sheet is a little more grippy and elastic.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 07:01 
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By the way Auzcar, didn't we have this conversation about you playing modern defensive or blocking around the same time last year ;)

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 07:17 
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You're probably right, and yes, I'm very happy he's in my club and even more happy he's in my team. We did have this conversation last year and this is not the first time I've thought in these lines, it's just that it's so nice just to be able to block it back against weaker opponents. Just blocking will however not give me much against the stronger opponents and that's why I need to develop my chopping game. This time I hope I can stick to the plan I know will help me reach the highest level in the long run.

Curiousity are a evil being and will only go away when you actually give in to it. I definitely think that changing to a fresh LP will help, and if you haven't tried cleaning your pips you could try that.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 07:26 
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auzcar wrote:
You're probably right, and yes, I'm very happy he's in my club and even more happy he's in my team. We did have this conversation last year and this is not the first time I've thought in these lines, it's just that it's so nice just to be able to block it back against weaker opponents. Just blocking will however not give me much against the stronger opponents and that's why I need to develop my chopping game. This time I hope I can stick to the plan I know will help me reach the highest level in the long run.

Curiousity are a evil being and will only go away when you actually give in to it. I definitely think that changing to a fresh LP will help, and if you haven't tried cleaning your pips you could try that.


Put the sponged version on for a couple of sessions. See what is most fun and then stick with it no matter how the first and second matches in your league ends. Then, if it doesn't feel right, change back and stick with it for eternity :).

Just bought myself a toothbrush... But when I look closer to my used pips they seem to be a little thinner where thay meet the base sheet, where they should be a little rounded if the sheet as fresh. This could mean they don't "wave back" as fast and powerful as they should and therefore not generating as much spin as they should.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 09:43 
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Interesting topic... :) For one, I clean my pips and inverted every night after playing with warm water, some detergent in it and a sponge. I used to use a soft toothbrush, but now I just water my pips with the water. My inverted looks like brand new, my pips not (well, the sponge underneath, not the pips themselves), but my pips still grab like they were new. What I also noticed is that regluing your rubbers once a month will make them more new again when it comes to performance.

Coincidence or not, I will go to my table tennis distributor this Monday and order two bats: one with my regular setup and a second one on my spare Joo: a Razka 7 2.0mm and a DTechs 1.6mm. That Monday I'll try that second bat. So if they are in the store, which they normally are, I can get back to this topic.

Also interesting, I re-tried my DTechs OX last Monday. I'll try to make a comparison between OX, 1,2 and 1,6.

Oh yeah, as a a warm-up: I tried both P1-R with 1,0mm and 1,5mm sponge. Quite a difference between those two. The 1,5mm acted more inverted-like and you could manipulate the ball a lot when you're away from the table. The 1,0mm also had this characteristics, but to a much lesser degree. I also tried the 0,5mm of the P1-R. If you compare those three with each other, you notice two things: if the sponge gets bigger, you have (1) less reversal and (2) more manipulation options. I think the DTechs will be not different when it comes to those characteristics.

Also interesting is that a fellow pip attacker told me that the 1,6mm version of the DTechs is much easier to attack with in comparison with the 1,2mm. Also in agreement with the above statement.

Just to restrain your curiosity, Def-attack! ;) :D

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 10:21 
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guys, i play a mostly close to the table game with d-techs. 1.6mm. it's possible! you don't HAVE to give up the table, you just have to develop a lighter touch when on the defence and a bit more wrist on your countering.

it is very effective against the long flat serves if you hit it with a very slightly open face - and just punch straight through the ball. it's usualyl a light topspin but because of the sponge, it's about 10x faster than ox.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 10:28 
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SHFL way is the most effective way to deal with long serves offensively and trust me...he knows what he is doing...

aside from that, joos push with his pips is not super spinny, it is simply very low...and most importantly LONG....the length limits the speed, angle and power your opponent can attack your push....practice with a peice of chalk....draw a line on your opponents half of the table about 4 inches from the end and try to land all your pushes in that area.....regardless of spin, if your push is low and deep you will have enough time to recover for the next chop...


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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 16:21 
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Thanks fellows! Hopefully I can wait until monday to read about Lorre's findings. I am very curious. And I also clean my inverted after ever session but not always the pips. I also use a plastic sheet to cover the inverted, that keeps it fresh longer.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 16:33 
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SuperHappyFunSlider wrote:
guys, i play a mostly close to the table game with d-techs. 1.6mm. it's possible! you don't HAVE to give up the table, you just have to develop a lighter touch when on the defence and a bit more wrist on your countering.

it is very effective against the long flat serves if you hit it with a very slightly open face - and just punch straight through the ball. it's usualyl a light topspin but because of the sponge, it's about 10x faster than ox.

Even in OX, this is a very effective way of handling flat serves with that rubber. I've not found another that does this as effectively.

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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 21:06 
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I have used P1r in OX, 0.6 and 1.2 sponge. There is no doubt that LP get harder to use with the thicker sponge. I also have no doubt that DTecS with 1.6 sponge is very difficult and it takes lots of practice time to tame it.


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PostPosted: 12 Aug 2011, 23:23 
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.practice with a piece of chalk....draw a line on your opponents half of the table about 4 inches from the end and try to land all your pushes in that area.....regardless of spin, if your push is low and deep you will have enough time to recover for the next chop...

yes, this has tremendous importance for long pimpled defender...play with OX, medium or thick sponge doesn't matter...
and let your pushing arm expand, to continue the movement without interruption, to become longer after contact with the ball..

finding 1.6mm.DTecs the most beneficial, whatever it does it does it even more (than 1.2) and it's more deceptive (also making the combo heavier).
Without mentioning footwork, highly recommending 1.6 version..


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