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PostPosted: 04 Dec 2011, 01:56 
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So, what exactly will the new ball be made out of? A lot of plastics are very dangerous to make. Nasty stuff, plastic is. At a plastics factory near our town, to work in certain places in the factory you can't be a woman who can still have children. It causes too many birth defects.

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PostPosted: 04 Dec 2011, 02:26 
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mynamenotbob wrote:

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My original comment: They don't care that this new ball will make millions of balls worldwide pretty much worthless overnight, just like they did to us before a decade ago.
Quote:
Adham's response: [These balls] will be still legal as they are now for some time (perhaps 2 or 3 years) until all stocks are depleted.

Is it a fact that the national associations will not require the poly balls in competition for 2 or 3 years? Banned rubbers are thrown out immediately as soon as their approval expires. Why would banned balls be any different? Also this is such a precision sport, we can't be going back and forth between different balls with different characteristics and performance. Has anyone really thought through this parallel ball scheme?



No apologies for re-posting this as it was on another thread, but i think this is too easily brushed aside....

Well, this brings another problem to the fore in time, when both balls are legal to use (the change-over period!), will it be a case of individual leagues choosing 1 ball (the new one) above the other for use (in effect rendering celluloid balls obsolete before the official date?), or either - in which case players would have to be equally adept as using the new ball as the old (bearing in my mind the differing qualities of each ball?), or could home teams choose different balls for different games in a match?

Oh, such a simple game - continually complicated by changes not properly thought through by a dictatorship that affects, what, 99% 0f players!

I can't wait for the revolution......................

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Last edited by Robot Blocker on 04 Dec 2011, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Dec 2011, 03:16 
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What I know now is that the ball's effect will be more pronounced due to the increased air friction.
More curves and disturbing trajectories to come. July 2013 :lol:

Its rather late since it was told that the new ball is valid after the London 2012 Olympics.

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PostPosted: 04 Dec 2011, 04:08 
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Tassie52 wrote:
and I take these comments seriously. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I do not think that a "worldwide ban on celluloid" is likely. But... it does make me wonder why the ITTF made the statements that are being attributed to it. Perhaps there is another side to the story. How will I find out unless someone asks them.


So, you have doubts but need SOMEONE to ask him? You are joking, aren't you?

I asked Adham for evidences on 3 different issues on this forum and got every time a BS answer, where he presented no evidence.

Second, it is not necessary to email him, because he is an active member and knows, what is going on here.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 05:52 
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Ok guys, because nobody wanted to ask Adham Sharara about the coming worldwide ban, I've taken the initiative to contact him. I've got a reply in less than two hours. :up: Here's my original mail and his response to it:

My original mail:

"Dear Mr. Sharara,

Recently you've received an e-mail from Tassie52 of the OOAK forum concerning a couple of issues about the old celluloid and the new poly ball (i.e. the new plastic ball). You've given him some clear answer about those issues, but it is stated for quite a while now at the forum that there is no evidence about a coming "worldwide ban of celluloid". Concerning this coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" I have four questions for you:

(1) Is the introduction of the new poly ball solely based on the coming "worldwide ban of celluloid"?
(2) If not, what are the other reasons why the ITTF has chosen to proceed with a non-celluloid ball?
(3) Can you give, to tackle the discussion about the truth value about the coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" once and for all, prove about this coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" (e.g. web links, scientific articles, written document,...)? Please add them to your reply.
(4) If I'm correctly informed, you were a defender in your younger days. What do you think will be the effect of the new ball on playing styles like modern defense (e.g. executed by Joo Se Hyuk)? I know this is a subjective question, but I'm quite curious how you see this as a (former) defender.

Looking forward to your informative responses.
Thanks in advance.

Yours Sincerely,

Lorenzo *** (last name)
asa Lorre (OOAK forum)
Belgium"



Adham Sharara's response:

"Hi Lorenzo,

There is no upcoming world-wide ban of celluloid, this was a simplification of the current status and the status on the use of celluloid for many years past. Their is also no health issue with the finished product. The issue is in the manufacturing of the celluloid sheets that are used to make the ping pong balls. These sheets are produced from raw celluloid, which is a highly fibrous and flammable material. It is banned on commercial flights for many years now, this is nothing new. The use of the celluloid in producing products (ping pong balls, motion picture film, etc.) has become virtually extinct due to the very high health hazard to the workers using these materials. It is the same case for Asbestos. These are materials with very thin and minute fibres that are inhaled and stick to the lungs causing, as you can imagine, lung disease. In some western countries there is an outright ban on the use of asbestos or celluloid at the raw material level for many years now. There is no ban for the use of the finished product. This is quite hypocritical if you ask me "We do not want to hurt our people, but let others get hurt". The so-called "others" are waking up and realizing that such materials are harmful for their workers and have started to impose restrictions in production in form of a gradual decrease in the production for a steady reduction and eventual stoppage of production all together. Other governments have imposed very strict regulations for the factories that have celluloid production at the raw level. Some of these restrictions are very expensive, so manufacturers find it cheaper, and healthier, to change the material and use composites or plastics that are less hazardous or hopefully safe to use by the workers. The film industry as you probably know is going digital more and more every day.

For table tennis balls (ping pong) balls, the manufacturers have become almost extinct. There are basically 2 in China that produce good quality ping pong balls, 1 in Japan, and 1 in Korea. There was also one in Eastern Europe but it closed several years ago. I personally started to warn manufacturers more than 6 years ago, that the use of raw celluloid will be more and more regulated, as this was the trend in all other countries. This was taken seriously by Japan, and their solution was to buy balls made in China, same as the European companies have been doing for more than 20 years since the production of raw celluloid in their own countries was no longer viable. As you know, China was admitted to the WTO a couple of years ago and hence must abide by the WTO's standards and regulations. The celluloid production factories have been given a period of time to reduce their production, and the manufacturers that rely on the finished celluloid product are of course very concerned that they will no longer be able to produce their products in a few years time. This is when the two largest ping pong ball factories in the world (in China) woke up and started looking at other technologies to produce ping pong balls with other non-hazardous materials. The result is what we refer to today as the POLY balls.

Since a completely new technology was being invented for the new balls, I asked the manufacturers to seize this opportunity and produce better quality balls: seamless, round, even hardness, etc. This is hopefully what will happen. We will transform what could have been a crisis of having a shortage of ping pong balls, hence rendering them very expensive and probably extinct, to a positive result of better quality balls for all to enjoy. A by-product of this change is that POLY balls could be produced everywhere and not just in Chia. This may help make them more competitive and affect the price positively (cheaper) after a while.

I would like to stress that plastic balls have been in our regulations for more than 50 years, indeed Dunlop and Halex in England used to produce plastic balls, with an old technology, when they stopped producing raw celluloid in the UK at that time. So, as far as regulations are concerned there is no change, POLY balls are legal and always were. What would need a regulation change in a couple of years is the removal of the legality of using celluloid balls at ITTF events. However, we must give enough time to the manufacturers and resellers to deplete their stocks.

To answer your questions below, for (1), (2) and (3), perhaps I was misunderstood. The ban on celluloid production (also Asbestos) varies from country to country and started more than 30 years ago in some countries. The only countries left to produce raw celluloid used for the manufacturing of ping pong balls can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Already Japan is on a declining quota, and as of last year China is also on a declining quota. I am not sure about Korea. So, if we wait until these countries also stop the production of raw celluloid, then we would be in trouble. This is why we are pro-active and have pushed for a solution which remains within our rules and that was available to us all along. There are no other reasons for changing to POLY balls.

Regarding your question (4), yes, I am extremely concerned with the direction our sport has taken that has made the defensive player almost extinct. I really admire someone like Joo Se Hyuk who has persevered in the onslaught of attacking players. Players are asking for spinier and faster equipment all the time. This is always to the disadvantage of the defensive player. Faster blades, faster and thicker sponge, tackier rubber, etc., is all very bad for the defensive player. But that is the natural trend that the sport has taken. This is true in most sports.

I am not sure how the new ball will affect modern defensive players. Personally I thought that the increase from 38mm to 40 mm would help the defensive player, and it should. But most coaches and most defensive players were not able to figure out how to change and modify their techniques to take advantage of the new larger ball. They played the same way and found it more difficult to vary the spin and more difficult to attack from far. It took them a long time to adjust. This is why I admire Joo Se Hyuk, he is a classic defender (not how I imagined the evolution of a defender) and yet he remains in the top 10 in the World. Really amazing.

Regarding the new ball, the reports we have from the players that tried them is that it is more bouncy and less spiny. What does this mean for the defensive player? I don't know. Hopefully good news.

Please feel free to post this response to the Forum.

Lorenzo, I answered this e-mail exceptionally because of your genuine concern, however, you must understand that I receive more than 300 e-mails daily on my ITTF e-mail account and would find it difficult to engage in an exchange of e-mails. This is why I recommend that you post this response for others to see.

Thank you for understanding.

Adham Sharara
ITTF"


Last edited by Lorre on 05 Dec 2011, 06:20, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 06:16 
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I am not sure how the new ball will affect modern defensive players. Personally I thought that the increase from 38mm to 40 mm would help the defensive player, and it should. But most coaches and most defensive players were not able to figure out how to change and modify their techniques to take advantage of the new larger ball. They played the same way and found it more difficult to vary the spin and more difficult to attack from far. It took them a long time to adjust. This is why I admire Joo Se Hyuk, he is a classic defender (not how I imagined the evolution of a defender) and yet he remains in the top 10 in the World. Really amazing.

Regarding the new ball, the reports we have from the players that tried them is that it is more bouncy and less spiny. What does this mean for the defensive player? I don't know. Hopefully good news.


It IS really amazing. This guy has no clue. The larger the ball, the less spin the ball will carry, thus making any shots not loaded with topspin "brakes" after bounce and becomes a "sitter", perfect for powerloopers like Ma Long and Wang Liqin to loopkill consecutively with ease. Even against the world's best chopper Joo Se Hyuk, as long as the Chinese players can read his spin variations clearly, his chops have become nothing to fear. And I mean nothing. Making the ball bouncier will make this "braking" effect even more pronounced, thus easier to loopkill still... This new ball will make topspin loops even more important than ever before, at the expense of choppers and blockers. It's not the coaches and players' fault, Mr. President, for failing to produce more world class defenders and blockers with the use of the 40mm ball. Your expectation was completely wrong, and you are still marching down the same wrong path with yet another new ball. Perhaps it's time for a new leader.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 06:28 
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Great job Lorre!

Adham wrote:
There are no other reasons for changing to POLY balls.

Then why increase the ball size .4mm or more?

Adham wrote:
Regarding your question (4), yes, I am extremely concerned with the direction our sport has taken that has made the defensive player almost extinct. I really admire someone like Joo Se Hyuk who has persevered in the onslaught of attacking players. Players are asking for spinier and faster equipment all the time. This is always to the disadvantage of the defensive player. Faster blades, faster and thicker sponge, tackier rubber, etc., is all very bad for the defensive player. But that is the natural trend that the sport has taken. This is true in most sports.

If "Faster blades, faster and thicker sponge, tackier rubber, etc," are the reason for the near extinction of the defensive player, then why did the ITTF take away our defensive tools? How about giving us back a 1.5 aspect ratio (to compensate for the big ball) and a revocation of the minimum friction rule?

That would help restore equilibrium to the sport.

Adham wrote:
Regarding the new ball, the reports we have from the players that tried them is that it is more bouncy and less spiny. What does this mean for the defensive player? I don't know. Hopefully good news.

Since many of us strive for spin variations and a low bounce, it sounds like bad news to me.

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 06:36 
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I asked him about those higher tolerances.

I'm afraid a higher bounce and less spin will make defense (or any other not full attacking) less effective. However, it will also lessen the speed, which is intrinsically a good thing. However, technology will make up for that speed, like technology made up for the speed loss of the transition from the 38mm to the 40mm ball.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 07:17 
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Adham was specifically asked by Lorre to prove his claim:

Lorre wrote:
3) Can you give, to tackle the discussion about the truth value about the coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" once and for all, prove about this coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" (e.g. web links, scientific articles, written document,...)? Please add them to your reply.


Now we have a long reply but no proof at all there. No web links, no scientific articles, no written documents, nothing.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 07:29 
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Smartguy wrote:
Now we have a long reply but no proof at all there. No web links, no scientific articles, no written documents, nothing.


Yes, I know, Smartguy. I asked it to him again in my reply.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 07:38 
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Smartguy wrote:
Adham was specifically asked by Lorre to prove his claim:

Lorre wrote:
3) Can you give, to tackle the discussion about the truth value about the coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" once and for all, prove about this coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" (e.g. web links, scientific articles, written document,...)? Please add them to your reply.


Now we have a long reply but no proof at all there. No web links, no scientific articles, no written documents, nothing.

First sentence: "There is no upcoming world-wide ban of celluloid, this was a simplification of the current status."

Smartguy, this is a very complex issue. Adham only stated that there is a coming "worldwide ban of celluloid" when there is no coming worldwide ban of celluloid to simplify the issue for us. Remember, he is on a whole other level of intelligence compared to normal human beings. After all, he says the big ball should help defensive players, however most coaches and most defensive players are too mentally feeble to figure out how to change and modify their techniques to take advantage of the new larger ball. This actually makes it seem very strange to me that he says he doesn't know what the more bouncy, less spinny and even larger poly ball will mean for the defensive player. I suspect he has a pretty good idea.

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 08:04 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
This actually makes it seem very strange to me that he says he doesn't know what the more bouncy, less spinny and even larger poly ball will mean for the defensive player. I suspect he has a pretty good idea.


I can tell you, what it will mean for all the players, not only for the defensive ones: buying, buying and buying new rubbers and blades in attempt to cope with the new playing properties of the new balls.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 08:26 
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Adham wrote:
... coaches and most defensive players were not able to figure out how to change and modify their techniques to take advantage of the new larger ball


Translated:
... most coaches and defensive players haven't figured out that when they make progress, the ITTF will come up with new rules to ensure they run around in circles. They are obviously not smart enough to realise there is no future in defensive play. Heck, just cut your losses, surrender to our will and embrace the offensive style of play.


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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 10:05 
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OOAK Forums has a unique selection of people, if we think in a non bias way, you should see that it is going to be a benefit to the wider community of table tennis players, however that does not mean it is fair for those who like the defensive style.

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 10:19 
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Velonstrials wrote:
OOAK Forums has a unique selection of people, if we think in a non bias way, you should see that it is going to be a benefit to the wider community of table tennis players, however that does not mean it is fair for those who like the defensive style.

So anyone in a minority is biased?

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