OOAK Table Tennis Forum

As far as i'ver read the forum 802-1 is actually what you're searching for.

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Primorac OFF-, Hexer HD, 802

Wang Tao used TSP Spectol as did Milan Orlowski-2 all time greats who used this rubber extremely effectively on their SP backhand.....only one guy I can think of today on the world stage that uses SP is Tang Peng-but he runs around a lot more to hit his forehand-much more than either Tao or Orlowski...oops forgot Tan Ruiwu is still world 100 (73rd)...same goes for him though..he runs around... to hit his forehand

Ian

p.s. Highest rated American is world 373 ...what should be a national embarrassment for the USTTA.... and the USOC (not that I'm bitter or anything)-frankly some of the Chinese players should get our places-they are deserving....

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Blade: Juic Yi Yong Fan Extra: FH: Juic 999 Elite (red) 2.2 BH: Friendship 802-40 (black) 1.8
Blade: Giant Dragon Kris: FH: Friengship 729 Judo (red) 2.0 BH: Feint Long 3 (black) 1.3
Blade: Alfa Pro : FH: Friendship Judo (red) 2.0 BH Friendship 563 (black) 1.5
Blade: Yasaka Cougar: FH Juic 999 Elite 2.0 (black) BH: Friendship 837 (red) 1.0

After having read almost every conversation in these forums on grippy and non-grippy short pips, I thought I would add the following comments which may benefit those in my 75-80 (or less) age group. At the 60+ age level, we are faced with the problem of making concessions to age: a shift to tactics (a la Johnny Huang), the control necessary to effect these tactics, and an emphasis on spin changes plus placement. I was pursuing the usual inverted route until Richard McAfee visited our club six months ago and basically moved me into fh-sp and bh-lp (a combination he uses to good effect). As McAfee points out, close to the table play and thereby pips becomes our only alternative.

As a previously ranked squash player, hand-eye coordination is not an issue. But finding the right combination of blade and short pips has become that (using Pogo on my bh is wonderful and attacking strokes have become lethal). But my experience seems to contradict some of the very logical postulates written in these forum. First, ALL blades (Titan, etc.) with 802-40 or Clippa (grippy) produce good controlled strokes but at a lower speed level that my opponents—whether loopers or otherwise—have little problems returning. On the other hand, non-grippy 799 on a very hard, stiff Galaxy T2 blade is so fast that almost all opponents—particularly loopers—can’t deal with it. My problem becomes that of streaks. Age reduces the energy level and hence concentration so that when I’m “on”, the 799/hard,stiff blade, ie. Galaxy T2 is like a bullet. But anything less, like in the 3rd or 4th match, and the ball sails away. The best combination has become 799 with the LKT 9010 carbon transformer (set to OFF-): fast enough to prevent the loopers from keying in on the ball but enough control to consistently place the ball where I want it. In particular, the upward movement at the end of the short forehand stroke (described by Kees) seems to give 799 that slight topspin to bring the ball down. This is noticeable in stroking very low loops from my opponents during warm ups. The 802-40 has a higher trajectory and is somewhat slower; the 799 has a lower throw angle and much faster (both with the same blades). I will try the texilium blades suggested by Coach B and his wife (Gambler makes one at a reasonable USD32.00) but I suspect it will have the same characteristics as the 9010 carbons.

Some area of confusion still remains in watching the McAfee videos. McAfee is a top ranked senior and I am constantly amazed at the difficulty his US2100+ opponents seem to have with his smooth, seemingly lazy strokes. Granted RM has centuries of experience on all of us but with his Flarestorm on the fh (a grippy short pip) he takes full advantage of pop ups that occur much more frequently than with my opponents. Perhaps it’s due to a much better/spinny serve with Flarestorm than with 799 (or Spectol) added to his seeming preference to receive all serve returns on his lp, thereby neutralizing the serve/spin effects of his opponents. Whatever, I am still in the learning process by studying his videos, tempted to follow in his grippy sp + ALL combo blade, but perplexed by the fact that my experience prefers the non-grippy sp + hard OFF blade approach. Hope this helps the veterans out there.

Actually, I think your observations are good for the younger age brackets as well. Over the last five years or so I have been shifting from an all forehand, power looper approach with Japanese/Korean penhold to a quicker short pips game based on blocking and hitting. Short pips are definitely a godsend for this style and my control has improved, though I also tend to be "streaky' in my play, maybe due to the lower margin for error of the pips.



I find that my less spinny pips sometimes give my more experienced opponents greater trouble as they are used to heavier spin. With basement players, they actually have less trouble, just like a dead ball serve is almost useless.



I also prefer a faster blade, though I have gone to thinner sponge. 1.5 seems plenty and even 1.2 sponge as with my Armstrong pips seems to work fine as the blade provides the speed on hard hits and the thinner sponge allows better control on blocks and over the table. If you want to try something grippier but still very fast, the new Friendship Legend 105 seems a souped up version of 799. I'm using it on an all wood Off blade, works quite well.

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-- Andrew

Jack Miller custom Chinese style penhold
Armstrong Attack 3 40 1.2 red
Giant Dragon 8228-FC 1.8 black

Jack Miller custom Chinese style penhold
Giant Dragon 8228-FC 1.5 red
AiR Scirocco SR inverted 1.8 41 sponge black

Butterfly Mazunov
Friendship Legend 105 1.9 black
AiR Classique F3 OX red

agooding2: thanks your comments. Should have mentioned in my original post that another reason for the 799 over the more spinny short pips is that return of serves against 1800+ opponents are my weak spot. Don't have the relative experience yet to handle this area either in anticipating or reacting to tricky spin. Frustrating when the rest of the game is better but they win 70%+ on those returns. Therefore, between the benefit of a better, spinny serve and neutralizing an inexperienced return of serve, I've got to remain in the classic sp camp .

It's usually best to take those types of serves with your long pips. I play with Butterfly Challenger 1.5mm, which I guess is half-spinny, on an ALL carbon blade. Challenger is great for hitting and flicking serves, but if some has a really good serve the long pips are a God-send.

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Coach Li: Kill the game against long pimps! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAHNaiIhnWM

Alternatively learn to return the serves positively. I used to use inverted and when i switched to short pips I could both stop the spin and go with it, making for less predictable and trickier returns.

A passive serve return with long pips can be a weakness, but an active, unpredictable one can be a strength. So maybe work on returning with both sides.

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-- Andrew

Jack Miller custom Chinese style penhold
Armstrong Attack 3 40 1.2 red
Giant Dragon 8228-FC 1.8 black

Jack Miller custom Chinese style penhold
Giant Dragon 8228-FC 1.5 red
AiR Scirocco SR inverted 1.8 41 sponge black

Butterfly Mazunov
Friendship Legend 105 1.9 black
AiR Classique F3 OX red

On "bad days" do to age and infirmity, I love my short pips/medium pips set up. I am not going to be able to move to deep defend or play a looping game. I am not a blocker/pusher so whats left? PIPS!

I frankly copied Miao Miao's game-it serves me well when the choice is pips or not play....
And I agree, this game is streaky as all blazes because it is total attack!

Ian

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Blade: Juic Yi Yong Fan Extra: FH: Juic 999 Elite (red) 2.2 BH: Friendship 802-40 (black) 1.8
Blade: Giant Dragon Kris: FH: Friengship 729 Judo (red) 2.0 BH: Feint Long 3 (black) 1.3
Blade: Alfa Pro : FH: Friendship Judo (red) 2.0 BH Friendship 563 (black) 1.5
Blade: Yasaka Cougar: FH Juic 999 Elite 2.0 (black) BH: Friendship 837 (red) 1.0

Thanks all your replies on receiving serve. Continuing feedback even if the conclusions are still nebulous. Can report that with same rubber (fh: 799; bh: Pogo 0.6) the difference between (1) an extremely hard, stiff blade (Galaxy T2) and (2) a fast, but better control blade (729 9010 with 2 carbon layers in OFF-) is so large that I understand the use of BTY Gergelys. With the #2 blade there is a sense of better control but the games with 1700+ players goes the full distance, e.g. 3-2 or 2-3. While I have a sense of control and placement with the 799 sp, the looping opponents have just enough time to get in that one loop that eventually wins the point for them. Last night, however, I went back to #1 (on the non-grippy 799 I shortened the forward stroke and, if below net, gave it the up movement described by Kees). Dadgum, matches that had gone 4 or 5 games with #1 were now 11-1, 11-3, 11-7 scores against the same opponents. The bh Pogo had to be carefully stroked on the attack (compared with #1) but still very effective. Impressively, the sp throw angle on this #1 combo was low, low. Chop blocks, even on the sp, left the loopers looking at the ball, mouth open, because they seemed to just skim the table. If the ball was taken right off the bounce, the shortened time and sp speed made life impossible for the opponents. Still working, however, on making the right, exact stroke on the non-grippy pips. Too much power and they will sail over the opposite table edge. Believe that, if I can master the fh stroke on the non-grippy sp with this very light, hard, stiff blade, it--in combination with the change-of-pace lp--will be scary. Plus, it fits my attack, attack, close at table persona. Txs, again.

Epictetus, re: 799 on Forehand. I've read with interest your experiences with 799 on FH with both control blade and the fast hard setup (Galaxy T2). I use 799 with 1.5 sponge (HRS sponge) on a Stiga Clipper, which is considerably stiffer and faster than allround blades. I feel super control with this set up. My FH stroke has no backlift (just rotate from my waist to get behind the ball) and is a short forward hit through ball while it is on the rise. I can hit flat and fast or, using the small topspin rub you describe, put a little topspin on it if necessary if my timing is a little late. If my timing is right I feel like I can hit through any loop. I've tried other grippier sps (889, 802, 802-1) and much as I like them I can't improve on the 799. I've tried the 799 in 1.8 sponge but prefer the 1.5 for the crisp hit and low throw.

Some day I may try 799 on a harder blade like your T2. I do have a one-ply Western Red Cedar blade, which is almost completely rigid but with a soft feel. 799 feels better than all the other grippier short pimples on this one too. Deadly fast hits, but I find less control in service return. I don't use it very much so I'm sure with practice I could improve.

Here's to 799 on fast blades! An under-rated rubber with a following of two!

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Stiga Allround Oversize trimmed to Penhold
FH: Dr N Pistol 1.6 BH: Sriver L 1.5

JSheehan: Shhhhhh! Just came back from trip to another club and ran through the 1700+ opposition, which at my age is a ! Gotta keep this quiet or we'll encounter younger, faster, more agile players with the same equip. On the serve, used to vary between the 799 and the Pogo to provide some deception (very little, at higher levels) but find that with whip spin on the 799 you're not losing too much v.a.v. inverted serve. Check out McAfee's lecture on serves at the Asheville TTC (youtube). With a two finger grip imitating penhold serves, good spin is possible. McAfee doesn't seem to have any problems with his sp/lp serves so there's hope on the horizon. In any case, destroy this as soon as you read it..................

agooding2 wrote:
Since I was diagnosed having a hernia in the lower spine region, and had to give up modern defence using inverted and anti-spin for chopping away from the table and looping, I have begun using this rubber as well, in 1.9 mm, red, on a Tibhar Defense Plus blade (with Friendship 837 OX on the backhand). It is a notch faster than Friendship's 802-40, is capable of producing about the same good amount of spin, but is far less sensitive to incoming spin, and hits flat beautifully with good sinking effect. And it is very light-weight as well, which is a blessing to me. I use it close to the table for blocking and hitting, and even if I can't move around lot anymore, I seem to be getting back at the same level of play I was before. Its only rival, which I have on my other Def Plus, is the Double Fish 820 A (red, 2.0 mm), which is also something in between a short and medium pip, and even slightly faster than the 105. It is a lot less spinny and so produces more sink and has a flatter trajectory; very effective for blocking and hitting and great control in short play over the table. It is quite heayvy, though.

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Without opponent, no match.

Hope your back gets better soon, Kees. In my club, an anti-spin player had a hernia too. He is now completely recovered and plays as before. However, the fear for another hernia remains. It is nice too read you got back at the same level. There MUST be something in your genes

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Current setup: Babolat Pure Drive GT 135th Anniversary Edition + Luxilion Big Banger Alu Power 16/19 26k

OOAK Interview with Joo Saehyuk

Pipsy wrote Thanks, that is comforting to know.

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Without opponent, no match.

Interesting, I have been meaning to try the DoubleFish for some time now, I think Lily Yip uses it.

Sorry about your injury, I had back problems a few years ago that seem okay now, but do have nagging tennis elbow. Hope to get back in the swing next few weeks as it seems okay now.

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-- Andrew

Jack Miller custom Chinese style penhold
Armstrong Attack 3 40 1.2 red
Giant Dragon 8228-FC 1.8 black

Jack Miller custom Chinese style penhold
Giant Dragon 8228-FC 1.5 red
AiR Scirocco SR inverted 1.8 41 sponge black

Butterfly Mazunov
Friendship Legend 105 1.9 black
AiR Classique F3 OX red