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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 08:04 
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Do you think the old hardbat equipment and style could still be competitive against the modern style and equipment?

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 08:11 
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Up to about the 2000 range, yes. After that, modern rubbers have too much of a technology advantage.

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 08:43 
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Hardbat and style can cause an upset up to a certain high level of play. But I think (and as MNNB also says) at higher levels modern equipment just excels.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 10:28 
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A chopper of some class can play at a reasonable level using a hardbat but there is a ceiling. Im pretty sure that when Pinkewich first played for Australia in the 60s he used a Barna bat (later he went on to use inverted both sides and then a combo bat). I have a vague recollection of seeing a film of him play then and he was darned good. When young, fit and in training, he would almost never make an unforced error and to win a point you would have to be able to hit fairly powerfully to get through him. It's hard to be accurate but I suspect he would have been able to at least beat many current day 2400 players (principally those that cannot hit too powerfully).

As teenagers, friends and I would frequently play with hardbats, and in my 20s I played in a few hardbat events (the Victorian open used to have a hardbat singles). I'm guessing back then I could probably play at a level somewhere in the low 2100s.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 12:14 
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There's a 75 year old in Victoria rated 1500, 2250us? He still uses hard bat. Arguably he can't quite play at that level right now but he was only a few years ago and hes still equal in level to me as I've play him recently and only just beat him. He has won the Australian title for his age and maybe many times? All with his hard bat.

We have another guy of similar age locally of a similar level who doesn't use hard bat now but did in the past and has represented Victoria many times.

Anyway us2000 is nothing for the hardbat masters of their time, I bet given youth again all those guys could play around us2400 with hard bat against modern rubber and modern players.

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 13:06 
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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you foam but I think only a select few could play at a 2400 standard with a hard bat in their youth and they would have to be around the class of a Pinkewich. If the 75 year old you are talking about is CDB then he was actually never a high level player in his younger days and I don't think was ever near 2250. He has always been extremely fit though and has really shined as a Vet. MW (Vic1760s) is a similar but stronger example. He's a very solid player who, at his best, may have been 2250ish.

Both of these guys are of course decent players (and great guys!) but they could never compete against open class strong loopers as somelike like Pinkewich could. They have blossomed in the Vets because there they can't get powered off there. Also, remember that the Vic rating system can be heavily biased in favour of some of those who tend to play only in Vet events.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 13:52 
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It's extremely difficult for hardbat players to beat high-level modern loopers consistently. For a year I held the only high-level weekly hardbat round robin tournaments in California, so my interest in developing hardbat competition in our area was very high. Our highest rated hardbat player was Loc Ngo at about 2350 (he was our 2006 U.S. National Hardbat Champion), but our best hardbat player was Raymond Wang, son of coach Peter Wang (Peter was No. 1 in his Chinese province and a former Chinese national top-40 player.) In addition to winning 99% of ALL my hardbat round robin tournaments, Raymond also actively participated in all my Open round robins and regularly beat 2250-2350 modern loopers. However, all his wins against high-level loopers were extremely grueling long affairs. He is an excellent chopper with great footwork, and great fh and bh attacks. I can only imagine the athleticism needed to play hardbat at an even higher level than him. I would say a hardbat player who can achieve a 2500+ rating against modern attackers would be absolutely world-class.


Last edited by roundrobin on 02 Jan 2013, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 15:32 
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Out of curiosity, what blade and hardbat rubbers does Raymond Wang play with? I am thinking about getting a hardbat assembled and would like to get a combo that chops really well but also allows a good attack. What would you suggest?

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 15:39 
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I was talking about p Fischer, I'm not sure how good he was as a youth but I'm assuming very good considering he's still handy now, he's out of Europe, Germany maybe?. I'd guess pinkewich would have been a stronger hard bat player but then again he's much younger so its hard to say. P Fischer told me for most of his life he used the barna bat. P humphries a classical defender also played hard bat early on, I'm not sure if he won country week with hard bat or inverted but he did play the Vic vets team for something like 20 years straight, and went undefeteated on this side of the state for 30 years I believe. Two years ago those two actually played a veeeeeery long match with humphries winning, first time he's won that matchup in decades and decades of trying, he was very happy!. There's still plenty of class in the strokes of both those guys, I wish I could chop like that. Even now against Fischer I can't over power him, I have to play patient and smart to win that match, loops become almost irrelevant because he's happy to send 10 of my best back in row and I can't keep that up over best of 7.

Anyway I still think the very best hard bat players from the old days could go 2400 in the modern era.

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 15:54 
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ckhirnigs113 wrote:
Out of curiosity, what blade and hardbat rubbers does Raymond Wang play with? I am thinking about getting a hardbat assembled and would like to get a combo that chops really well but also allows a good attack. What would you suggest?


He uses the same hardbat combo as mine: Donic Defplay Senso FL and Buterfly Orthodox on both sides.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 16:26 
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From memory PF used to play about A3 or A4 ish in the 70s (in those days there was one centralized comp) and was never a high rated player. I also remember PH and think he was probably around the same standard. Again, such players are suited to the softer hitting vets game and do/did very well.

I agree that the very best hardbat players could be 2400 in todays times but it would have to be those like Pinkewich who grew up in an inverted era. Pre-inverted guys would pretty much have to start all over again.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 17:25 
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Where's a3 compared to modern points or divisions?. I guess the overall standard was higher than it is now. My father was about my level I think and he only ever played d grade at country week where I'm playing b2 in the modern day

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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 18:04 
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Yes, the standard was much stronger then. There were 3 Comps a year: Winter, Spring and Northern. Winter was the strongest with everyone playing. Thus, A1 consisted roughly of the top 24 players in the state; A2 was roughly 25-48, A3 roughly 49-72 etc. The top 4 or so players often didn't play Spring or Northern. There were far more players then (I think around 1500 played Winter pennant - the grades went down to about F6) and thus greater depth. Also, Australia was ranked 12 in the world in those days.

To give you an example of the difference in stregth and depth consider players like Peter Sheedy and Raymond Rozen. PS was around A3/low-A2 circa 1976 and a few months back was ranked about 42 in Vic...36 years later! From memory I think RR was around A4 ish then and he is ranked 74 today. There are quite a number of similar examples.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 22:59 
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I bumped into an old friend tonight. He told me he has film of Pinkewich from 1968 playing hardbat for Australia. He is going to bring a DVD of it next week. I will upload it when I get a chance - should make for very interesting viewing.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 23:08 
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carbonman wrote:
I bumped into an old friend tonight. He told me he has film of Pinkewich from 1968 playing hardbat for Australia. He is going to bring a DVD of it next week. I will upload it when I get a chance - should make for very interesting viewing.

That would be awesome! :clap: :clap: :clap:

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