OOAK Table Tennis Forum

The guy who runs the company has a long thread at MyYY here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_po ... ary#904078 and down the thread from there. Pretty interesting reading, although the first time I read it I was skeptical. But a few people like Next Level and ViktorK had good things to say about these rubbers, so I got curious.

For the last decade, I have played more or less exclusively with ALC blades and either Tenergy 05, or most recently, MX-P. I am a conventional two wing shakehand offensive player, getting older now, but still around 2050-2100. These days I have worried that I have had a tendency to beat myself more than I would like, missing shots from mistiming -- a lot of that secondary to not being as quick as I used to be (and maybe needing new glasses). I don't like my level dropping. It is inevitable but I don't like it.

So I bought one sheet of Karis M and one sheet of Karis M+ (harder sponge) in max thickness. I have used them on a ZJK-ALC (basically a Viscaria with a ST handle). Again, note that I actually paid full price for the rubbers and have no connection to the company and am therefore a more or less unbiased observer (or if anything, I went in with a negative preconception).

Here is what I have noticed so far with these rubbers:

There is a slight dome of the rubber right out of the packages (true for both M and M+). The sponges are blue color with very thin pores. There is no booster smell, in marked contrast to MX-P. I had forgotten how much easier it was to glue down and cut rubbers with thin-pore sponges like this one. A very nice feature. They are about teh same weight as MX-P. (M+ is a little more but not enough to worry about).

The pips on the inside of the topsheet are incredibly short (I've never seen anything like it before) and they have a shape that is somewhere between a circle and a hexagon. The topsheet therefore, overall, is very thin. I think this may be the key feature of this rubber. (I hope it does not make the rubber fragile).

These rubbers are not real fast, and not unusually spinny (although they certainly spinny enough and the topsheet has a very nice grippy feel). The main thing is that they are incredibly predictable, which became clear to me within a few minutes. That is the thing Nexy talked about in his threads on what he was trying to achieve when he developed the rubber. I have to admit I was very skeptical about that when I read it. It sounded like BS to me. (His threads always made me wonder).

But having tried Karis, I now think he has accomplished what he set out to do, and his descriptions ring very true once you try this stuff. I'm not just talking about his descriptions of Karis, but also how Karis is different from Tenergy and recent ESN rubbers. When you play with Karis, you sort of feel what he is talking about. These rubbers are really are something novel I think.

More than anything than, I would say the main features of Karis are predictablity and linearity. (Output is directly related to input with no weird discontinuities to put it in more quasi-technical terms).

Because of the predictability of the rubber, I was able to keep the ball on the table really well tonight. When I wanted to hit slow, the ball went slow, and it went where I aimed it. When I swung harder, the ball went faster, and importantly, no sudden increase in ball rebound with a slight increase in racket speed. (That is in marked contrast to the MX-P). So very few inexplicable misses where you hit the ball off the table and you're not sure why. With that said, they don't feel like Chinese rubber to me (I don't like those). Different. Not sensitive to spin particularly. I would not call them either Euro/Japanese or Chinese. I think they are something new.

One of the places this really showed up is against my opponent's good shots. I brought a lot more of them back and lived to battle longer in the point. I think most amateur offensive players will find that they are a lot better when they are on the defensive with this stuff than they would be with a lot of popular rubbers. In general I kept the ball on the table, but I also felt like I was able to be a bit more deceptive as to where I was going to place the ball. In other words, make it look to opponent like I am going to drive the ball crosscourt with my forehand but then go to the body or down the line at the last minute. For some reason, that was easy with this stuff. Also I was hitting really good angles and I was looping with a lot more variation in pace.

For now the only downside, and I think it is temporary, is the sense that some of my shots lacked the penetration I would get with Tenergy or MX-P. That's to be expected, Karis is definitely slower than either of those. Also, it seemed like I was hitting my forehand flatter than usual, probably subconsciously trying for more power to compensate for speed of rubber. I guess I would say that the throw is medium, though. I will need to play more with an eye on that more. In any case, when I got good body rotation that was not a problem, then the ball had plenty of pace. It is better to keep the ball on the table and win more points than it is to look spectacular winning a few points, so I don't mind. This sense of very linear control was present on every single shot. Loops, counters, blocks, short game, serve, return, push. I will need to work hard to get good body rotation on my opening loops in particular, because this stuff definitely does not reward lazy technique. You don't need to be Ma Long b ut you can't just loop with your arm. If you do, it will feel like it is about to fall off in a couple of minutes and your shots will suck!!

As for M vs. M+, given what I have been playing with for the last decade (T05 and MX-P), M+ is a step too far, especially away from the table. I definitely preferred M. Actually, for now I am more comfortable with M on the FH side and M+ on the BH side (which is a bit odd since M+ is distinctly harder), but I plan to use M on both sides for awhile and see how this goes. I ordered another sheet of M today so I will have it on both sides.

People will probably ask me to compare with all sorts of inverted rubbers. I won't be of much use. About the only ones I know anything about are Tenergy's and Evolution MX-P and EL-P. Karis is nothing like any of those.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

Thanks for the great review. More predictable, linear, slower, needs active playing... That doesn't seem like novel but rather a going-back to non-tensor(like) rubbers? Pitty you can't compare... Wonder what would be the difference with Sriver-like rubbers...

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I've given your comment some thought over the time since you posted it. Figured I needed to use it more before deciding about it. I still think with more time using Karis that there are quite a few novel things about it. I think the linearity comes from the very unusual pip structure, and it's not just a question of being slower than I'm used to. (It's slower than MX-P or T05, but it's still faster than Sriver, still has the kind of speed you may need for a 40+ ball). I still think it is a modern rubber.

By the way, I suspect defenders will love this stuff in a thinner version. I am no defender (!!), but with this stuff I feel like Neo in the Matrix (Next Level's description); not just blocking but also chopping, fishing, or whatever it takes. If it can help me chop with confidence (it does) think what it would do for someone who knows what they are doing and who plays defense by choice, and who is not using it in the Max thickness like I am?

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

I've been following this and the mytt threads a little and have some questions.

1. I'm probably not reading things right, I can't seem to find any real descriptions or good analysis between m and m+. At first I just thought it was there was harder sponge. But, if I saw a the cross section recently posted on mytt correctly (hard since the black is hard to see), it looks like the pip structure is different between the two. Is it? And Can you give a clearer description of the differences?

2. Next question, I like pipsy's question. Mine is similar. I've never played with classic rubbers, but have played with Chinese rubbers, how does it compare to hurricanes and skylines?

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1. Purely sponge hardness. M+ feels a tad less linear for looping if you swing more slowly and feels more linear if you tend to swing consistently fast. But it has many of the same control elements from the pips. You can't find good analysis because you are looking for things that don't exist. I prefer M because of the blades I like to use and the range of speeds I like to play within but I can use either.

2. M+ is closer to a medium Chinese rubber, M would be like a soft Chinese rubber, but the Karis has a thinner and more elastic topsheet with no tack. This is a Japanese rubber and maybe it might be comparable to some of the Japanese type Chinese rubbers but I think the level of exertion required is less and the Karis sponge is far more dynamic.

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I have always disliked Hurricane. I know it is good rubber and great players use it, (actually the world's greatest players) but I grew up on Japanese rubbers and I've used Tenergy for a decade and the European rubbers I have used are designed for players who like Tenergy. I never could play with Hurricane. My dislike for it was so intense that after about 1-3 minutes of hitting with it, I just wanted to give the borrowed blade back and return to my own. That is true even when the Hurricane is on the same kind of blade that I use. It doesn't matter if it's boosted or not. I still don't like Hurricane. I suppose in the fullness of time I could remake my strokes and anticipation enough to eventually play with Hurricane. I just don't want to do it. It would not be fun for me, and it would take a long time.

Karis didn't have anything like that effect on me. It was clearly a Japanese product. I would say it was liking listening to Italian or Spanish if you speak French. You don't fully understand it, but you know it won't take long to figure it out. By contrast, Chinese rubbers to me are like, well Chinese if you speak English or French. You kind of know you are never going to get there (a comparison that comes to mind because my wife is Chinese, and I really ought to be able to speak a bit more than the handful of phrases that I have learned by rote, but my Lord, the effort it would require!!).

I know some people might like more detailed technical or "analytical" EJ descriptions. So here is my best shot. I will emphasize cognitive aspects more than physics of the rubber or stuff like that because I am not much of an EJ:

Coming from Tenergy or ESN products designed to compete with Tenergy, Karis will feel just fine once you figure out you need to open your racket angle just a little more and relax just a little bit. And you will figure that out within the first five minutes or less. It will become very comfortable and intuitive in the first week, or less. And you will feel invincible, as if your opponent is going to have to put the ball somewhere where you don't get your rubber cleanly on the ball. Because if you don't mis-hit the ball, you just know it will get land on the table. (Anyway, that is how it will feel. You will still occasionally be overwhelmed, but it will surprise you when it happens). And with decent relaxed body rotation, you will be able to rip with all the power you need. And if your opponent gives slow or weak topspin that you can get to, that ball is toast. In other words, you will feel like your opponent has to hit winners.

You will pity the fool.

Karis will put your mind at ease. It will free you up to think about tactics and such.

Sriver? Last time I hit with some of that, a couple of years ago, it just felt dead. Predictably dead, and predictability is good, but dead, is... well... not alive. To me Karis is not dead. I did not want to rip it off my blade within the first minute. Or the second. Or after a week.

That's the best I can do for a description.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

The four thickness/colour options don't seem to be in stock right now on the international Nexy site, at least when trying to view it from Australia. For my bank account, that's probably a good thing.

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We've made two short reviews (in german) of the Nexy Karis M and M+.

Karis M+:
&t

Karis M:

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These review reminds me of the new TSP Regalis.

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I have to admit - those are amazing cover designs... Makes your eyes want to pop out.

(Still get a chuckle out of the Nexy logo, though, especially against that background..)

Iskandar

TSP Regalis Blue and Karis M and M+ look quite the same.

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From the same factory for sure.

I also think the same place makes at least the sponges for the new Spectol and Spinpips red and blue.

Regalis reviews (here on the forum) were also very very positive, and for similar reasons.

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Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

Same factory right? I still love my regalis. It's on my double inverted setup.

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Yasaka Valmo is another made-in-japan suspect too. In fact, the pictures I've seen online show a very short pip height - the closest to Karis that I've seen so far. But I'd need to see one in the flesh.