OOAK Table Tennis Forum

It depends. I'm lucky in that I have good relationships with some strong nationally ranked players, who are always willing to train with me, because it's good for them to get used to awkward setups.

It also helps that my coach used to run the training sessions, and as he's a top LP player there's more respect for the discipline.

What I did find was that I needed to be confident in expressing my needs in training as the standard one size fits all drill portfolio usually on offer always needs adjustment for sp or lp.

On the whole, if you can keep the ball on the table and block high level loops on either side, and have fair control over ball placement, decent players will want to train with you.

Weaker players won't, but they're the kinds of players you'll beat anyway because they don't understand or fear playing against pips.


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Yasaka Sweden Classic | 802 OX | C8 OX
Check out my blog - LordCope's Latest Learning Log - 10+ years of accumulate mistakes!

Hmmm...I may be on to something here with the 563 MPs on the FH. I flat hit quite a bit with inverted, but I am far more accurate with this setup. Blocks nice as well.

I really was worried i wouldn't be able to return topspin, but that has not been a problem yet even against fairly spinny players. Underspin is even easier because I have spin to work FOR me there. Really liking it so far. And it's pretty fast and explosive! really shocks people.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Update...

So after flying off the handle in an EJ indulgence in an effort to find a setup more conducive to a mixed game of classic chopping and at the table blocking (for plan B matches) have gravitated back to my Defplay Setup. The reason is that I wanted to keep my main setup is (VKM with P-1R) for real competition and leagues. Only other blade worth trying was my defplay and my sword. The sword, I broke in a massive, ill-advised FH chop on the edge of the table. In my recent EJ explosion, I've recycled all my blades (Sword chop, Defplay, Aurora, Stiga Allround Carbon) and tried several rubbers (Saviga V, C&F 3, 563 MP, Pluto, 388D). The goal was to find a style that will allow me to hang at the table when needed either for a change up, or to help my nerve issue.

I have looked at Pamela Song, Jian Li for styles to imitate. I am too much of a chopper to do the Pam Song thing, and definitely lean towards a Jian Li style... a very poor man's version.
What I found was that I really love OX on the Defplay because of the feel and the fact that it really has an excellent braking effect with specific pips when staying at the table.

My nerve issues have not resolved, but is much better, and with PT (and meds) I am able to play at distance a little more. (Helps to work at a Sports Med facility and to be a nurse). But the results of implementing a mixed game has gone from downright tragic to pretty good.

Karis M by Nexy
I really like Regalis and Karis. I have now purchased the Karis M in red with Max sponge and that went on the experimental Defplay. I stated in the Karis thread that it is too soon to tell, but the rubber has excellent feed back, spin, and feeling. The speed is perfect for a chopping game on the Defplay, but for attacking it would need a faster blade IMO. For when I DO attack, there is plenty of speed. I am more Modern defensive with this setup as it encourages me to topspin more. No bottoming out, like with thin rubbers, but has nearly the same chopping control as thin rubbers, but in MAX sponge! So far, it's exactly what I expected. I need more time with it, as I think my blocking angle is all wrong and the muscle memory isn't using the right angle. That being said, i am blocking very well and countering as well (Say what?!).

So, that's the Nexy Karis segment. So far, I'm in love with it.

388D was supposed to be an afterthought
The surprise of all surprises was the LPs I chose to put on the BH. I didn't have anymore black pips (traded Easy P with Pgpg) and the only LPs I had in black were Pogo and Dawei 388d both OX. So...just to have something on the BH to go with my red Karis, I slapped on the 388d expecting it to simply be a fill-in until I purchased something better. Much to my surprise, it was EXCELLENT on the Defplay. I hated it on the VKM...it was lifeless, feeling was bad, too slippery. On the Defplay, there was definite bite on the pips. Enough grip to chop and add underspin, whilst being a GREAT blocking pip. For me, this combo has been the best blocking combo I've ever had, which included Dtecs and DG. I think it's the blade/rubber combo. This is the most braking effect I've experienced, while still being able to keep the pips low and on the table. Very intuitive, and it really bothered my opponents greatly. Chopped as well as the Destroyer or the P-1r in terms manipulation and underspin. Less top-end potential compared to DG. but over-all, VERY good. The braking effect was what I was shocked by.

I had trouble with no-spin (relative trouble as compared to the other LPs I'm used to). Chopping no-spin was fine, it was hitting no-spin that I could figure out. And so far, the chop block doesn't seem as good or controlled (high balls, less spin). But a plain old passive block, which I do rarely, was brilliant. I mean...really shockingly good.

This is preliminary, and I played vs. a 1300 level-ish guy, an intermediate Jpen lady (probably 1500), and my practice partner 17-1800 level. I lost my first match to my practice partner (getting used to the setup) and then won the next two. Took the second 3-0. This breaks a LONG streak of losing to him as he's really improved vastly against choppers, beating a 2100 level chopper at our club this Tuesday. He'll likely read this, and make me pay for even mentioning this on Sunday..LOL. But my streak has been so awful (worst ever really) that I was really down.

I almost beat a 1900-2000 level guy that really understands how to play pips on Tuesday myself. We went 5 games, but I lost in the 5th at 10-12. I've never come that close against him.

If I have even a similar run this Sunday, this will be my new setup for the next season (Defplay/388D-OX/Karis M - Max)

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

IF you make blocking with inverted about angles, you will struggle to block for a long time. What you need to do is to keep your racket relatively high and experiment with hitting different parts of the balls, often coming across the ball slightly to counteract the sidespin of an incoming loop, hitting the ball with a short whip motion. Hitting different parts of the ball will change the angle, but if the topspin is heavy, coming from beneath the ball will lead to a lifting that creates risk. Some people just wipe the ball with light sidespin all the time. Might not be technically correct block, but can be practically safe and very effective.

But if you hold your racket out there for a passive angle, you will build in a habit that will fall apart once the spin gets heavy. And it will be hard to adapt to moving balls because you aren't aiming for a specific point on the ball.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Thanks for the reminder. I am aware that blocking technique is very nuianced and not solely about angles (I don't believe that my post above suggests that).

That being said, angles DO matter, and all I was saying above is that those angles are not the same between the 2 rubbers. The Xiom's throw is far higher and the speed is much more, so in order to land the ball on the table (given all of the other variables are the same, ie spin on the incoming ball, active blocking motion, a and starting point of my bat) I can't use the exact same bat angles. What saved me on the Karis is that the speed is less and the feel is more intuitive adjusting is not hard....but I'll need more time with it.

As for the wiping technique...I actually do that quite often, particularly when caught near the table and when I get a ball on my forehand.

However, your advice of doing a short whipping motion is something I don't really do...so please elaborate on that because a short whip makes me think counter and not block. I have worked hard on doing active blocks, and a I have a more forward motion and increase angle, but I don't brush on blocks (Unless wiping the ball to scrub spin off).

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

388D and Karis
So, my success with 388D continues. I was worried about how it would be vs. lower spin players (Which always tends to give me issues). But it worked brilliantly. It's just so good against power, very dampening with great braking effect.

I had been playing with Stiga Destroyer for the past couple of weeks prior to the 388D and I was having good success with that. And in my head, it feels more comfortable with my strokes as they are, but I just am not having the same level of success. This is against all sorts of levels and players.

The Karis continues to be good. On the Defplay, it feels a bit slow, which I like, but has enough umph to stroke the ball with confidence. I do not hesitate to topsin now. The only issue is...I feel like my topspins are more easily countered. I'm pretty sure my results are better with the Karis despite not being used to it. I think I've found my setup for this season....

Coach EmRatThich Controversial take on training
Cultural differences are interesting. I am a very culturally relative person. I enjoy EmRatThich's videos very much and I'm a fan. However, I dislike his intimation that abusing children breeds success. He very controversially showed footage of a chinese coach beating a child with a stick as a method of coaching. Waldner never needed a beating. Jerry Rice never needed a beating. There are many athletes to reach the top of their respective sports that didn't require this type of methodology.
See the comment here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZKkBzYg5k#t=09m26s
What do you think?

Happy Autisum Awareness Month
As a parent of a child on the spectrum, I encourage you all to support the cause.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autis ... reness-day

Jun Mizutani Training Serve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=endcOwFBZPo

Ding Ning Tomahawk Serve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC9uypaxp80

New Chtchetinine videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMdTiR5cwqM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKf7s4NGZgE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKf7s4NGZgE

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Beating or forcing a child triggers obedience through anxiety, but once the child becomes an independent adult, it'll become averse towards the acitivity associated with it.

Agreed. Negative reinforcement coaching has not proven successful given the same circumstances.

China is the best at TT, because it has a larger pool of talent with which to pull from, and it devotes the most amount of (State) money to the sport. Any country with 1/5 the Earth's population could be a TT powerhouse. Add to that the fact that they spend more money on the sport than any other nation and you get a TT superpower. I doubt this coaching philosophy is isolated to TT, and China doesn't dominate any other sport, including Football (Soccer) which is arguably the most popular sport in the Republic.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Decision
Tonight I plan on starting off my session with both Defplays, one with 388D/Karis and one with Destroyer /Omega IV Asia. I will make my final season decision tonight.

Celebrities Pong
Susan Sarandon playing Ping Pong with James Corden vs. 2 Juniors (Anyone recognize them?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSyGfiIBFJQ

Matthew Perry vs. Arial Hsing on the Ellen Show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zVpNXq224

Pong Mobile
My friend Mossa Baranao a local player out here in the DC area has a company that started a web-based app that makes the USATT database for ratings more searchable and more eye friendly. I will never use the USATT site again unless they do some serious clean up. You can even save certain players to your profile, track their ratings, and even add notes to them in case you ever play them in the future.
Check this out, very simple and elegant:
http://pongmobile.com/

Gustaf Ericson YouTube Vids
Here is My Youtube play list for all of Gustaf Ericson’s YouTube videos. He’s an OX Modern Defender who has certain elements in his game that I try to adopt:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... _NJuwRAb_Y

Dino-Skate
Here is a video of my oldest son, dressed as a T-Rex and Skating on Quads at a local roller rink:
https://youtu.be/e6TVVj8mhRg

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

All proper blocks are short counters. Anything else will fall apart under pressure and expose you to the full brunt of your opponent's spin. It may be so small it is imperceptible but for any good block, the short back and forth motion is always there. You don't need to brush, but your motion should be the same path as your larger stroke, which is tricky if you haven't mastered the larger stroke.

Angles matter far less than you think they do, especially if you take the ball early, but thinking in terms of them will make them a big deal when if you naturally think in terms of ball quality, you will be adjusting the angle without knowing it. But it's not worth debating, it's something that experience will show you.

I also block better with Karis than with Tenergy 05, but I don't think of it in terms of angle, even if it is. Those things are usually resolved in your counterhit.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

TT England Live Streams:
https://tabletennisengland.co.uk/news/f ... nd-action/
-ENG v. Netherlands (Men) https://www.facebook.com/SPORTbible/
-ENG v. Spain (Women) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaARmmKTWto

Adam Bobrow Playing Cyber Table Tennis
https://www.facebook.com/adam.bobrow.9/ ... nref=story

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Capital Area League and Revenge!
So much of what you do or what you are as a style is relative to the opponent you face. I think where I get into trouble at my level is when I decide to shoe-horn my desired style of play into a game, even when the opponent is just not the right type of opponent. Or when the player's level is too good.

Case in point, the soft players (Which I have been seeking out and forcing myself to play). This weekend I met up a lady who beat me in the last tournament I played in, a blocker/push blocker who uses SP but they are very slippery Dr. N SPs. Very passive on the BH and lots of dead balls, and then some reversal that makes people nuts. She beat one of my team mates that is at least a level better than her, if not 2. I, however, managed to avenge my loss by defeating her this time 3-2. She had the momentum and my trying to play a defensive mixed Chop/Pushblock game worked to some extent, but her soft balls and no-spin or slight spin caused many errors. Those games were all close.

Then took a timeout and decided...passive and defense gives her a chance...she doesn't spin enough nor does she play with pace. She lacks mobility and blocks long vs. spin and/or power. So I completely changed my style and abandoned defense and went straight up serve/attack....only playing defense if she gave me a strong counter that landed. It worked! I probably won 90% of all the serve attack balls I attempted, she struggled to block anything with power or any of the balls with more spin than power. My team mates even commented about how out of character it was for me, but also noted I was attacking more in general even against the other opponents. Where did this come from? All my recent double inverted attacking play that I do for fun...I feel like this has definitely infused the mentality that I can attack if I have to. (Particularly helps against weird servers who go long.)

Double Inverted Still Tickling My Brain
It is these types of games that really makes me think that eventually I will go double inverted...but again, I know not all opponents are the same and that there is fools gold in there some where. Still, Der_Echte and Michael Levene (and quite a few others) all thought a double-inverted modern D game might be good fit for me because my BH is my stronger side for attacking, but most cautioned that I better attack a lot more when I do so.
Vs. my practice partner, my win/loss vs. him with double inverted is quite similar, but I also know his game and more importantly his serves, so that isn't always an accurate indicator.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

I personally feel like playing any sort of defense with double inverted would not have any advantages over the classic pips setup, especially when you play aggressive spinny 2000+ loopers with very spinny serves. If you are good at twiddling.. theoretically you have three types of shots in your arsenal vs just two. Is Telnoy (?) from Ukraine the player you're trying to go after? If you do want to attack with your backhand and not bother with twiddling, why not use SP?

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Attackers: "All pips players are cheaters who can't loop, move, or read spin"
Me: I beg your pardon?

In short, I'm not sure of the "Advantage" either, but I can tell you what I have felt and what others have told me.

The advantages:
You can create spin on the BH (particularly against no spin or low spin).
More attack possibilites vs. all types of spin/can attack from 2 wings
Better attack percentages, meaning I will land more attacks.
Higher level players have to respect the serve return more.
Those who know how to play vs. pips cannot pin you down on your BH with no-spin.
Block with more safety (arc brings ball back down to table).
Better pushing vs. underspin.
Better options vs. soft players
More spin variation possible.
Less anti-spin predjuce, means you will get more practice because everyone is willing to play you.
More practice partners.
Some people are less used to playing choppers who use double inverted.

Disadvantages:
Less deception if any. (Reflectoid has a little bit because of the slower pace).
Less control vs. serves you can't read.
Less control vs. VERY spinny players.
Less adjustment in-game to your specific type of pip (for the opponent)
Less control vs. side-spin (on the BH side this is/was a problem for me).

There is technique to manage very spinny players. You mentioned Telnoy, and yes he's one of the players to model after. There is also Satoshi Aida and Jo Parker (Drinkhall now).


Because I'd rather loop than hit, and because SPs are the rubber I've used the least and I'd have a much steeper learning curve. I've used both LPs and Inverted the most... I did play with SPs for a bit to try it...just briefly, and I didn't like it for chopping. "Immediately I felt like, why not just used inverted." Not really willing to start from square one again. Additionally, I felt more "control" chopping with thin inverted than with very grippy thick LPs like FL3 and P4.

Again, I will probably not switch permanently just as I didn't before. But I certainly enjoy playing with it, and I feel like it helps with my attacking in the LP/Inverted modern D game. (Psychologically).

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Is this really a problem for you? If anything, I got the impression that people are looking to practice against my chop in particular, and against me in general lately. As one of clubmates told me :I'm going to play in the Senior Games this summer - and 30+% of them will use pips, so I better be ready".

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USATT: 1807 | League: 1887