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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 11:54 
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Dark Knight
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Baal wrote:
It is not evidence when there are equally or more plausible explanations for both things you think you see. Or more precisely, one can't conclude anything from it.

Definition of Evidence: Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.

Semantics, I know... but that seems to be the bit we disagree on. :lol: In other words, I'm merely saying my observation are evidence of less spin, but they are clearly not proof as there are other explanation. We can't dismiss any of these observations, until they're proven to be invalid. Sorry, that's my inner scientist talking... he normally only comes out when I'm at work. :oops: :lol:

BTW We just got some more balls into our shop, so I'll be testing them, as well as others at the club.

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 12:12 
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I've tested some of the "Brand new" No-Logo balls.

Initial observation is not necessarily more spin - but I'm finding the flight of the ball is far more consistent. Less floaters, on serve and receive it seems easier to keep the ball low.

I like them FAR better than the other plastic balls (first release).

Can't wait to try more.

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 16:46 
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D40+ Durability.....I've been running a tournament this week. 80+ games, no breakages.

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 19:34 
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Dark Knight
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so_devo wrote:
D40+ Durability.....I've been running a tournament this week. 80+ games, no breakages.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Wow, that's better than most of the celluloid balls! :o :o :o

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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 19:35 
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Baal wrote:
More curve on the ball could also be evidence of lack of roundness or how much it deformed in the initial portion of its flight off the bat.

I'd have thought lack of roundness would have resulted in "wobble" and variable flight rather than curve. haggisv's use of the word curve would suggests a consistent arc in the balls flight path not wobble?

pgpg wrote:
Baal wrote:
I have done the added test of playing blind and sneaking them in with playing partners to see if they notice. I have done this many times now.

I find it amazing that your playing partners don't pay attention to the ball they are playing with. After all, the labels are not small and players stare at the ball during serve quite a bit. :?:

Not disputing your findings, but wonder if it was truly 'blind' in that regard.


In my experience I agree with Baal in this respect. It's pretty common. I made this video using the 2014 version of the Joola 40+ ball, one which had wider tolerances and greater variation than allowed now so if a player was going to notice it would be even more "obvious" when this was filmed around August 2014.


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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 00:15 
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My practice partner and have played with these quite a bit, and we haven't broken any. Even better, I like the way it plays....similar to the Nittaku Premiums.

FWIW, I have learned to not care about the ball type as much these days. Aside from the durability, I feel like it's all a big nothingburger any more.

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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 02:03 
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I'm excited to get the set of 18 i ordered for our club to test out. if they're good, they will become our new club ball.

Now I just wish they could come out with this in their two-toned ball which I love the concept of.

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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 12:48 
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Timo Boll is currently going through the Korean Open without losing a game. Anyone still want to argue that this ball is resistant to heavy spin?

(looks like I just jinxed him :o seems I didn't 3-8 to 14-12 :clap: ).

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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 21:56 
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Debater wrote:
More curve on the ball could also be evidence of lack of roundness or how much it deformed in the initial portion of its flight off the bat.
I'd have thought lack of roundness would have resulted in "wobble" and variable flight rather than curve. haggisv's use of the word curve would suggests a consistent arc in the balls flight path not wobble?


Depends on how far out of round. If it is a complete egg, yes. Otherwise it could appear mainly as a change of arc. In other words, if the wobble is small it would mainly increase the turbulence in the air flowing around the ball which might increase the overall arc in the trajectory. Hardness would affect the way the ball initially comes off the racket, also, resulting in potentially quite complex effects.

But I suspect that an even bigger factor is that the D40+ bounces a bit higher than the DHS40+ Haggis is used to (which has a very low bounce compared to everything else out there, including celluloid, as you saw yourself). That is going to affect where haggis is taking the ball a bit and could affect his timing.

There are a lot of aspects to this. If someone has been using the old DHS40+ for a couple of years, than the D40+ will take a couple of weeks of getting used to, but the fact remains that the D40+ is a far better ball.

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Last edited by Baal on 22 Apr 2017, 22:27, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 22:03 
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haggisv wrote:
Definition of Evidence: Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.

Semantics, I know... but that seems to be the bit we disagree on.


Which is why I wrote "Or more precisely, one can't conclude anything from it." In other words, I was saying that your "evidence" was entirely inconclusive, and also, since there was no video analysis to show that there really is a change in arc, there was really no evidence at all, even by the most precise definition.

I know it sounds pedantic, haggis, but since I actually am a working scientist I react forcefully to an argument that goes something like "I think I see a thing that is dependent on these five variables, therefore I conclude that only one of those possible things is the explanation, QED, the D40+ ball has 'less spin'...."

One of the hardest things to measure in table tennis is how much spin is on the ball. That is why you see so many contradictory posts about what balls spin more or less on the internet.

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Last edited by Baal on 22 Apr 2017, 22:19, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 22:08 
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pgpg wrote:
Baal wrote:
...
I have done the added test of playing blind and sneaking them in with playing partners to see if they notice. I have done this many times now.


I find it amazing that your playing partners don't pay attention to the ball they are playing with. After all, the labels are not small and players stare at the ball during serve quite a bit. :?:

Not disputing your findings, but wonder if it was truly 'blind' in that regard.


I should have mentioned that when I was slipping the D40+ ball in, we were not playing free, we were doing various drills. So people weren't scrutinizing the ball in their hand so much.The Nittaku and the DHS both have red and black on the ball label and if I am not telling people that I am surreptitiously alternating ball types they have no reason to notice, primarily because the playing properties are not changing. Try it yourself, you will see. People won't notice.

By the way, all of my regular practice partners are well over 2000, and another important context is that at my club the Nittaku Premium is by far the favorite ball and has been pretty much since they become readily available. Now after a few points if I slipped in a regular DHS40+ and a few ugly rallies ensue, they would be more likely to look down and say "what the $%^^ is this??"

And also, I still have not managed to break one! Most durable ball in the history of the sport I am starting to think. In any case, this is the first DHS product that I've tried (be it ball, blade or rubber) that I've ever liked.

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PostPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 20:54 
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It might be slower, have more backspin effect and whatever, but I prefer it to the Nittaku ball. I think Timo Boll winning the Korean Open in the way he did closes out the question for me of whether a heavy spin game is effective with these balls. The main thing is not to expect to draw cheap errors too early in the point because of ball inconsistency.

I was drilling with XSF, this ball and the V40+ from DFish yesterday and the V40+ was the one that stood out like a sore thumb. I haven't had time to practice extensively with that ball yet, but it felt kinda hollow. Might actually do an extended test later this week.

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PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 00:33 
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Double Fish celluloid balls were never as good as DHS or Nittaku or Butterfly (in terms of roundness, consistency, or durability). They were, however, cheap. I would not be at all surprised they fall short with their ABS version.

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