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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 03:24 
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I was experimenting with high elbow in the past week on my serves and I like it. Feels like I can relax my arm more and be more precise. IMHO one thing with high elbow is that it should make the backspin serve very similar to topsin one. But I am not sure.


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 03:38 
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The elbow lift is subtle and part of the path of the swing and snap. You are going in and letter J shape in reverse so to speak. Look at Samsonov you see this most clearly.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 07:02 
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NextLevel wrote:
fastmover wrote:
Just wondering: why do TTEdge tutorials emphasize the switch between side-top and side-back for deception? IMHO mostly sidespin and sidespin-backspin should be much easier to switch between without being noticed, especially if the server is not a World-class player. Sidespin-topspin appears to be more difficult to execute whilst keeping the motion similar.

I probably misunderstand something. My topspin serves do not work at all and pretty much anyone can distinguish between side-top and side-back very easily. Vey often when I go to a tournament and play my level, anyone can read my serves like an open book, so all I can do is to vary the degree of backspin. If I serve some junk (side, or side-top) I often get forced into a counterdriving rally that I hate. I will post a video tonight.


The TTEdge app is a better place to look, but I never got that impression. I got the impression that Brett was explaining how to vary the spin and keep the motion similar and the hard work is up to you. Nowadays, I do a smaller version of what I think/hope is Trevor's motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J25_yBuhwPE

By the way, speed of the motion, amount of spin, similarity of the swing and the trajectory of the serve all matter. Trying to deceive people when the motions are clearly different is often going to last less than one point.


That's a good serve.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 07:20 
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fastmover wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Barfly wrote:
I have started to regularly practice topspin/no spin variants of my serves as my opponents caught up and adopted to my backspin serves so I am at a stage where I really need variety in order to get a chance for easy points, here is my pendulum topspin attempt:

Front view:
https://youtu.be/Q2d8SV6az9E

Side view:
https://youtu.be/uWiwBjlYAkY

In my mind I am just trying to hit the ball with the upper part of the rubber but I am unsure if I am actually getting it right and if such serve has any real topspin, I rarely get significant popups so a bit uncertain if I am on the right track, thank you for all the help.


Your serve mechanics are good, as they have been for a while.

The serve appears to be sidespin with maybe a slight hint of topspin. You'll probably need to lift your elbow slightly on the forward swing to get more topspin. Can I use your footage to make a ETTS video?


Just wondering: why do TTEdge tutorials emphasize the switch between side-top and side-back for deception? IMHO mostly sidespin and sidespin-backspin should be much easier to switch between without being noticed, especially if the server is not a World-class player. Sidespin-topspin appears to be more difficult to execute whilst keeping the motion similar.

I probably misunderstand something. My topspin serves do not work at all and pretty much anyone can distinguish between side-top and side-back very easily. Vey often when I go to a tournament and play my level, anyone can read my serves like an open book, so all I can do is to vary the degree of backspin. If I serve some junk (side, or side-top) I often get forced into a counterdriving rally that I hate. I will post a video tonight.


Speed matters. Watch LTT38 to understand how the speed of your action makes a difference.

It's possible to make your opponents lob your topspin serve if it all happens fast enough.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 13:20 
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So here it is. I guess it is too slow and the finishing position on topspin (is it actually topspin?) gives it away :(



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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 13:52 
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My take is that you aren't holding the racket in a way that allows the power in your body to transfer to through your fingers (IMO, your grip is too tight and the range of mobility of your wrist is too limited). But I could be wrong. And to make that serve effective, you need a heavy backspin variant. The topspin on that is not going to get people to pop the serve off the table unless they push it and its how similar it is to backspin that is your savior.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:53 
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There is at least some truth to that. I even developed a routine of slef-talk before serving to remind myself to not hold the racket too tight, especially in competetion. Somehow it is less of an issue on the reverse.


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:59 
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Your just not snapping your wrist in a relaxed motion. It really looks like you are muscling it. I know this because I can see your neck, head, back muscles flinching to get every little bit of power. You should be able to do that serve with just your elbow and wrist to a pretty darn high level of spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooOY8AqK60c

pause right here to see the grip I tend to use: https://youtu.be/ooOY8AqK60c?t=71


Last edited by wilkinru on 14 Nov 2017, 15:05, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 15:00 
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fastmover wrote:
There is at least some truth to that. I even developed a routine of slef-talk before serving to remind myself to not hold the racket too tight, especially in competetion. Somehow it is less of an issue on the reverse.


My grip for the reverse serve and my regular pendulum are different. In both cases though, my fingers are holding the paddle mostly on their tips and my wrist is loose. My fingers are more on the blade head for the reverse serve. But that is just to facilitate my swing. There is no single right way, just try stuff and see if you can get more spin with it.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 15:02 
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My grip for the reverse is the same except thumb position: lower for regular, higher for reverse. I experimented a lot, and it seems to be the best option (at least for the reverse).


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 02:09 
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Your reverse is a good serve but if you look at it, the follow through is large because the preparation is not as big in the backswing of the arm. The wrist does allow for a large follow through in that direction though. But a technically better serve would stop closer to the point of contact.

The wrist behavior on the reverse is the opposite of that on the pendulum. But the problem is that you don't have the room for your wrist to follow through though you try to fold it at the end. This reveals your inadequate preparation.

If your wrist had the same range of motion on your pendulum as it did on your reverse, that would give you some insight into one thing that is missing. As in that your wrist should start out as extended on the pendulum forward swing as it ends on your current reverse serve.

A lot of table tennis is about timing and analyzing the preparation or backswing. Backhand serve is very different if you prepare it and swing entirely in front of your body with low toss for control or you do it swinging from the side of your head like Many choppers or you do it from the side of your body like Dima and pull your whole body into it.

This preparation will minimize your follow through and have you in a better ready position after completing the serve. But these are technical considerations. For Everyone, there may be other considerations.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 05:40 
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How would a heavy side-backspin (with heavy backspin mostly) serve react off the floor? Considering if it is fast, low and short. Should it necessarily roll backwards? I don't have an old laundry cart and if I did, it would be impractical to carry it to the gym. So I have to rely on the ball's trajectory on the floor to see the spin.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 06:05 
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fastmover wrote:
How would a heavy side-backspin (with heavy backspin mostly) serve react off the floor? Considering if it is fast, low and short. Should it necessarily roll backwards? I don't have an old laundry cart and if I did, it would be impractical to carry it to the gym. So I have to rely on the ball's trajectory on the floor to see the spin.


It should break sharply sideways at a right angle or sideways and backwards.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 17:10 
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I wouldn't think it should jump backwards, at last on the first bounce. A golf ball usually jumps backwards in the second or third bounce and that's coming from a steep height and landing on a soft surface. Not sure how the revs compare though.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 23:16 
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A serve that is not very fast will jump backwards and sideways, I can do that. Not sure about a fast one.

BTW, talking about grips: the most comfortable grip for me on the pendulum serve is the one that ZJK uses .
I even tried it for some time, then I thought that the "fist" grip has more potential and I should stick to it. I am reverting to it again, let's see what happens.


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