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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 05:40 
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mikea wrote:
TraditionalTradesman wrote:
I was an English major at an American Ivy League university and am an attorney, and I completely agree with Pushblocker's interpretation. The rule clearly does not say (or even imply) that natural changes in the rubber due to wear and tear from indoor or outdoor play make the rubber illegal, and if I, as an attorney, ever had to defend someone accused of doing something illegal by playing in the sun, as a result of which their pips became a bit more frictionless, I'd have a very easy time showing that they didn't violate anything. Laws (and rules like this) have to be written clearly to make it unambiguous what is or isn't okay, and when they're not, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the person being accused. I'd also reiterate what I said earlier in this thread, which is that when a rule is a ridiculous imposition that is the product of organizational corruption, like this one is, it's virtually a moral DUTY to find loopholes to expose the rule's unworkability and absurdity.


I disagree. There is no absolutely no ambiguity in "provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface" unless you want it to be there to suit your agenda.

If you have any doubts about what is intended then you can also refer to the ITTF handbook for match officials which says "The covering must be used as it has been authorised by ITTF". By Pushblocker's admission after "playing in the sun" magically one side of the racket is not as authorised by ITTF as the properties have been altered.

As an attorney in the land of OJ Simpson you might be capable of persuading others that the wording of the relevant rule is unworkable and absurd but that in my opinion would make you part of the problem and not the solution.

As amateur players I believe we have a duty to play within the spirit and guidance of the laws and I can never agree that setting out deliberately to circumvent the rules as you advocate - no matter how competitive you are or how badly you want to achieve your goals - is ever justified.

I'm sure that I'm never going to convince you on this so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the topic. And as Pushblocker is getting away with using a covering that is not as authorised by the ITTF I expect he will continue to be happy with what he is able to achieve with it.


There is indeed NO ambiguity, but that lack of ambiguity doesn't come out in favor of your argument, and no, you don't have to be O.J. Simpson's lawyer to twist reality in order to prevail on this issue. It is a basic test of reading comprehension, one that you keep failing by taking phrases out of context and twisting their meanings.

There are only two things prohibited under the rules:
(1) "physical, chemical or other treatment" that modifies the rubber's playing characteristics; and
(2) "deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour" that "significantly change the characteristics of the surface"

Playing in the sun, resulting in rendering the rubber as a WHOLE more uniformly frictionless does not violate either of these rules. It is not a "treatment" prohibited under the first rule, and it is not a "deviation from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour" prohibited under the second rule. Your interpretation relies on making a mush of these rules and jamming them together, so that in your mind there's a rule that requires playing the rubber as is, and if it experiences natural wear from play or from the elements (sun, wind, hot, cold, etc.) while you're playing, you're no longer allowed to use it. But that's not what the rules actually say. There's NO WAY I can fairly read the rules to say that, in fact. You have to bend over backwards to invent the prohibition you're suggesting is there. Nor is this a matter as to which there could be reasonable disagreement, even. If you have a "reasonable" view, you need to support that view by showing us, just as I've shown you, how the rules (not out of context quotes you've used but the rules AS WRITTEN) could possibly be read to prohibit playing with a rubber that experiences a uniform change in playing characteristics due to natural wear from play (or playing in the sun).

As for my moral duty argument, my point is that when a rule or law is unjust or the product of organizational corruption, which this one is, it's almost a point of honor and self-respect to do what you can to show the world how absurd and/or unenforceable it is. I'm not talking about BREAKING the rule. I'm talking about playing precisely WITHIN the rule's limits but achieving an objective that the rule's writers were trying (but failing) to prohibit. That's what Pushblocker is doing, and I respect him for it. I don't think he's cheating at all. Players using illegal boosters are cheating; he isn't. In addition, he's entirely in the open about what he's doing, which is something I also respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 06:39 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Quote:
As for my moral duty argument, my point is that when a rule or law is unjust or the product of organizational corruption, which this one is, it's almost a point of honor and self-respect to do what you can to show the world how absurd and/or unenforceable it is. I'm not talking about BREAKING the rule. I'm talking about playing precisely WITHIN the rule's limits but achieving an objective that the rule's writers were trying (but failing) to prohibit. That's what Pushblocker is doing, and I respect him for it. I don't think he's cheating at all. Players using illegal boosters are cheating; he isn't. In addition, he's entirely in the open about what he's doing, which is something I also respect.


As I said previously, whether playing TT in the sun is a treatment lies in the intent of playing TT in the sun, and as such is clearly unenforceable, unless the player themselves were to sign to a statutory declaration that they were playing TT in the sun in order to change the properties of the rubber, which I can't see happening any time soon.

Similarly player boosting is supposed to be against the rules, while manufacture boosting is within the rules. Both could be using exactly the same substance on exactly the same rubbers. Note that it is not the booster that is illegal, but the illegality lies in who applies it. Again the rule is unenforceable.

Both, again in my opinion, are cheating.

Where are the people trying to change the laws / rules to be enforceable and fair? That would be my moral duty if I felt strongly enough that rules were unjust or a result of corruption.

BTW, I did try to start a separate thread in General, "Where do you draw the line?" to try to keep this thread on the equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 09:41 
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mikea wrote:
Since getting involved in this thread I can see that it has been brought up countless times on this and other forums and people far more experienced and better qualified than me to comment have disagreed with your view.

Your arguments are only intended to obfuscate the real issue which is that you are deliberately altering the characteristics of the playing surface for your own ends. I'm fine about protesting the rules but circumventing them for gain can never be right.

You will never convince me otherwise. Be grateful that the eight tournaments that you enter a year allow you to use non-legal rubber.

Hmmm, the vast majority of world class players plays with rubbers that are illegally modified but they are doing it in a way that can't be detected. I'm friends with world class players and I know for a fact that many or even most at the world class level use rubbers that are modified from factory properties. Theoretically illegal but none of the tests that the ITTF has can prove it unless a player over-treats and the rubber becomes too thick..

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 09:46 
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mikea wrote:
TraditionalTradesman wrote:
I was an English major at an American Ivy League university and am an attorney, and I completely agree with Pushblocker's interpretation. The rule clearly does not say (or even imply) that natural changes in the rubber due to wear and tear from indoor or outdoor play make the rubber illegal, and if I, as an attorney, ever had to defend someone accused of doing something illegal by playing in the sun, as a result of which their pips became a bit more frictionless, I'd have a very easy time showing that they didn't violate anything. Laws (and rules like this) have to be written clearly to make it unambiguous what is or isn't okay, and when they're not, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the person being accused. I'd also reiterate what I said earlier in this thread, which is that when a rule is a ridiculous imposition that is the product of organizational corruption, like this one is, it's virtually a moral DUTY to find loopholes to expose the rule's unworkability and absurdity.


I disagree. There is no absolutely no ambiguity in "provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface" unless you want it to be there to suit your agenda.

If you have any doubts about what is intended then you can also refer to the ITTF handbook for match officials which says "The covering must be used as it has been authorised by ITTF". By Pushblocker's admission after "playing in the sun" magically one side of the racket is not as authorised by ITTF as the properties have been altered.

As an attorney in the land of OJ Simpson you might be capable of persuading others that the wording of the relevant rule is unworkable and absurd but that in my opinion would make you part of the problem and not the solution.

As amateur players I believe we have a duty to play within the spirit and guidance of the laws and I can never agree that setting out deliberately to circumvent the rules as you advocate - no matter how competitive you are or how badly you want to achieve your goals - is ever justified.

I'm sure that I'm never going to convince you on this so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the topic. And as Pushblocker is getting away with using a covering that is not as authorised by the ITTF I expect he will continue to be happy with what he is able to achieve with it.

Wrong again. As authorized means untreated. Every rubber changes properties with age, some faster and some slower. Try playing a chinese sticky inverted.. You can pick up a ball with it when new.. After 10 hours of playing, all the stickyness is gone and friction is like 30% less. If you were right, you would have to change rubbers after only a few hours of use as they would no longer be as authorized. Again, what they clearly meant is unmodified without treatment.
You interpret what is written based on what you want it to say and not what it actually says. Every rubber is no longer as authorized after a little bit of use, so, only new rubbers would be legal..

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 20:21 
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Attorneys...


It is the intention to alter a rubber which makes the behaviour a no-go, and if - just in case - a referee blocks a bat from competition in a tournament due to alterations noticed I'd like to see the player trying to take legal steps in protest. Good luck.
Some say that boosting a rubber or the use of oil is the same as if someone uses treatment on pimples to render them frictionless. I object because there's no legal frictionless pimple available while rubbers with more catapult, more friction and/or factory tuned rubbers absolutely are. Illegal glue is still in violation of the rules despite the ironic fact that some players do use VOC-glue while speaking out against boosting etc. - but yeah, it's always the other one who is cheating, isnt it?
If someone is that unhappy with the existing rules why doesn't he try to fix them for good, together with a truckload of other players worldwide? Instead, there's a huge amount of players bending the rules or hideously trying to improve their setup with not-so-legal treatments.

So, the most important issue I'd like to have clarified is wether or not someone within the community uses treatment - on purpose. This, IMHO, is a duty to the community.
I don't boost the sponge actually - I've tried several substances and techniques but the positive effects didn't make up for the negative impacts and the time needed for preparations.
I am using photo-glue on the wood and latex on the sponge and let them dry well, I am using peanut-oil and olive oil to regain the grip/tackiness of my rubber and I also use water with ammonia, sometimes alchol, to clean the rubbers. So, I do violate the rules, don't you think? But do I cheat?

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Last edited by Red on 02 Jan 2018, 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 21:15 
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If someone studies the laws or hires an accountant to find every legal way to pay less income taxes and that person pays a lot less taxes than someone with the same income just because they found every way, every possible LEGAL deduction available to pay less taxes, did they cheat on their taxes or was that person just smarter than those who pay more?

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 21:42 
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So, PB, if your comparision with tax-loopholes equals your behaviour on rubbers does that imply that you're using the effects of 'playing in sunlight' on purpose!?

If yes, then why don't you say it loud and clear that you're treating the rubber on purpose (to make it almost frictionless) instead of hiding behind loopholes, equations and weather-influences?

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 22:58 
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Red wrote:
So, PB, if your comparision with tax-loopholes equals your behaviour on rubbers does that imply that you're using the effects of 'playing in sunlight' on purpose!?

If yes, then why don't you say it loud and clear that you're treating the rubber on purpose (to make it almost frictionless) instead of hiding behind loopholes, equations and weather-influences?


Again, use is not treatment. As I like the effects of PLAYING outdoors TT on my rubber, I play a lot of it. I do not leave the rubber in the sun.. I USE it. Leaving it in the sun = treatment.. Playing outdoors = use.

Let me ask you: are those 4 players treating their rubbers or are they using them?

Most people would say that there are 4 people in the picture playing outdoors table tennis..
You would say that there are 4 players in the picture treating their rubbers..

Or.... what it is that you see in the picture depends on what are those players intentions when playing outdoors TT..
or... it's use if they are using inverted rubbers and it's treatment if they are using long pips rubbers...

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 00:53 
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I like my long pips the older it gets. I don't like my inverted the older it gets. Both will dry out naturally causing the rubber to lose elasticity. All you have do with long pips is to let it sit out in open air in your house between playing days. Do that until you get the feel you like, then put it in a paddle case.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 01:47 
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1-pb is friends with Werner Schlager & likes megadeth. :rock:
He plays a little bit of tt in the sun to top up his tan :up:
happy new year folks from me and the cavaliers


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 02:58 
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Again, I won't blame someone for being honest but I am actually squared against someone who's running circles around a simple answer. Studying the vids let me think that your pimple, PB, is frictionless on a regular basis, I can't sense much difference in behaviour throughout the years.

When playing outdoors or with the kids I am not using my main setup, by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 04:23 
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Red wrote:
It is the intention to alter a rubber which makes the behaviour a no-go


No, that's absolutely wrong. A rule is about behavior, not intention. You can't ban an "intention." An umpire considering a possible rules violation is going to be examining your racket, not your intention. And if he examines it and sees it seems a bit frictionless, he might ask how it got that way. If the answer is regular use during play, whether in sunlight or otherwise, that's the end of the story. There's not a legitimate further question, "Well, did you play in sunlight knowing that playing in sunlight was going to make your pips more frictionless?" or anything of that sort. The answer to something like that might be, "Well, yeah, I was aware that sunlight makes pips more frictionless, but I was playing for fun and training, i.e., because I enjoy table tennis." Umpire: "Um ... how much fun were you having?" Player: "Huh?" Umpire: "What percentage of your play in the sun would you say was motivated by fun, and what percentage was motivated by the desire to make your pips more frictionless?" You see how absurd this gets.

This is why these things have to be objective rather than hinging on what is or isn't inside someone's head. The rule is the rule, and what the rule bans is "treatment," not natural wear through play, whether in the sun or elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 04:43 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Red wrote:
It is the intention to alter a rubber which makes the behaviour a no-go


No, that's absolutely wrong. A rule is about behavior, not intention. You can't ban an "intention." An umpire considering a possible rules violation is going to be examining your racket, not your intention. And if he examines it and sees it seems a bit frictionless, he might ask how it got that way. If the answer is regular use during play, whether in sunlight or otherwise, that's the end of the story. There's not a legitimate further question, "Well, did you play in sunlight knowing that playing in sunlight was going to make your pips more frictionless?" or anything of that sort. The answer to something like that might be, "Well, yeah, I was aware that sunlight makes pips more frictionless, but I was playing for fun and training, i.e., because I enjoy table tennis." Umpire: "Um ... how much fun were you having?" Player: "Huh?" Umpire: "What percentage of your play in the sun would you say was motivated by fun, and what percentage was motivated by the desire to make your pips more frictionless?" You see how absurd this gets.

This is why these things have to be objective rather than hinging on what is or isn't inside someone's head. The rule is the rule, and what the rule bans is "treatment," not natural wear through play, whether in the sun or elsewhere.


That sums it up perfectly!

I have another similar example.. Back in the late 90's to mid 2000's, I bought fixer upper homes, lived in them for 2 years while remodeling them and then sold them for $70k to $100k profit each and LEGALLY did not pay a single cent in capital gains tax on each home that I flipped as there is a law that allows you to sell your primary residence every 2 years and make a profit of up to $250k as a single person or $500k as a couple. While that law was meant for people who have to move due to employment, needing a bigger house due to kids etc. it did not exclude primary residence house flipping.
That law was NOT meant for part time home flippers like me to make a killing..
I did NOT commit tax fraud for using that law in my advantage.. If I would have bought those houses as investment properties, I would have paid big $$$ in capital gains taxes but I bought them as primary residence, lived in them for 2 years and then flipped them.. While the "spirit" of the law was not to make investors richer, a law or rule does not really have a "spirit". Laws and rules are regulations in plain English and they say what they say and they don't say what they don't say.. It's that simple.
Doing things like this is not cheating.. It's called being SMART!

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 08:24 
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To get back to the issue of the Talon... It's a very durable rubber and it can last for 1.5-2 years easily. I don't clean LPs so, after 1.5-2 years, the dusty Talon that was used for 8-10 hours a week will be a completely different rubber than the brand new one. Also, it's going to have much less friction than the new one. Hence, the question is, am I breaking rules by playing with it???


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 09:49 
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nachalnik wrote:
To get back to the issue of the Talon... It's a very durable rubber and it can last for 1.5-2 years easily. I don't clean LPs so, after 1.5-2 years, the dusty Talon that was used for 8-10 hours a week will be a completely different rubber than the brand new one. Also, it's going to have much less friction than the new one. Hence, the question is, am I breaking rules by playing with it???


In my view ‘treatment’ implies an active intervention. I wouldn't think natural ageing qualifies.


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