OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 18 Oct 2018, 21:30


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: "Sink effect" meaning
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 11:12 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 16 Nov 2017, 06:23
Posts: 14
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I've heard this phrase a few times, always in the context of SP rubbers. I don't know what it means, and in SP reviews people just seem to take it for granted that everyone knows the definition of this phrase. If someone could tell me what it means, that would be helpful, ty.

_________________
TSP Swat FL
BTY grip tape
F/H: Friendship 802-40 with 2.0mm 35° white sponge
B/H: Xiom Vega Intro 2.0mm


Top
 Profile  
 


PostPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 19:53 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 07 Nov 2014, 13:26
Posts: 635
Location: Bogor, Indonesia
Has thanked: 2839 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Blade: Butterfly Defence Alpha
FH: Donic Slice 40 CD 1.5 mm
BH: LKTStrgr+KokBLuJap 1.1 mm
drewandmalone wrote:
I've heard this phrase a few times, always in the context of SP rubbers. I don't know what it means, and in SP reviews people just seem to take it for granted that everyone knows the definition of this phrase. If someone could tell me what it means, that would be helpful, ty.
cmiiw, please.

I take it as the same effect when you spike a balloon flat straight forward, it stopped by air drag and drop to the table.

I don't think it feasible with current 40 mm ball, but quite apparent with 44 mm ball.

Sent from my I7D using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 01:05 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 16 Nov 2017, 06:23
Posts: 14
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Sounds right to me, ty!

_________________
TSP Swat FL
BTY grip tape
F/H: Friendship 802-40 with 2.0mm 35° white sponge
B/H: Xiom Vega Intro 2.0mm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:48 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 7048
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 867 times
Why don't you give some examples of sentences that contain the words "sink effect"? Maybe we can figure it out by context. It might just another thing like "dwell time" or "flex", which are just two of the very many very vaguely defined terms used by table tennis equipment mavens which mean different things depending on who is saying it.

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:57 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 09 Oct 2008, 00:48
Posts: 2108
Location: Lafayette, California
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 88 times
Blade: BBC Ghost
FH: TSP Spinpips RED
BH: Dr Neubauer Aggressor 0.6
With certain rubbers -- mostly thinner-sponged short pips -- when you flat-hit a ball in a low, fast path towards your opponent, sink causes it to unexpectedly and suddenly drop downwards, contacting the table sooner than expected. Think downward wind shear and the effect it has on an airplane. Sink can be very effective, especially when the opponent thinks the ball is going long but sink causes to unexpectedly drop and contact the table. Most SPs don't produce sink. I'm not sure I've seen obvious sink in the 40+ ball era. 563 1.2mm and TSP Spectol both produced significant sink with the 40mm celluloid ball.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 00:00 
Offline
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 13:38
Posts: 2264
Location: Washington DC
Has thanked: 519 times
Been thanked: 456 times
Blade: Defplay/Stiga All Carbon
FH: Gambler MechTek/T05
BH: Super FX Large Pore/T05
nathanso wrote:
With certain rubbers -- mostly thinner-sponged short pips -- when you flat-hit a ball in a low, fast path towards your opponent, sink causes it to unexpectedly and suddenly drop downwards, contacting the table sooner than expected. Think downward wind shear and the effect it has on an airplane. Sink can be very effective, especially when the opponent thinks the ball is going long but sink causes to unexpectedly drop and contact the table. Most SPs don't produce sink. I'm not sure I've seen obvious sink in the 40+ ball era. 563 1.2mm and TSP Spectol both produced significant sink with the 40mm celluloid ball.


I agree with this description exactly...the wind shear analogy.

Except, I think I still experience it when playing with and against SPs...just less so and usually only with classic SPs. The new ones are too fast and tensor-ish.

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!"Rating: 1615

Projects: Player Equipment Grid
Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2018, 02:32 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 24 Apr 2011, 11:24
Posts: 504
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 128 times
Blade: Innershield ZLF
FH: Chop-City!
BH: Curl P-4 OX
Spectol still gives pretty good sink. From my view, and talking around about it, sink is caused by the spin 'wearing out' on the ball. For example, with top spin balls you can predict where they'll go and how far. Everything is uniform. The ball uses the magnus effect to create that C shaped arc, and it usually has enough spin to maintain that path until the point has ended.

With the lower grip rubbers, say you loop or block back a top spin ball. The other player is used to seeing a top spin ball react a certain way. They think "Ok, it's going to dip about here and bounce about this high off the table." What actually happens though, is that the top spin "wears out" on the ball much sooner than expected. And it was the spin that was both maintaining and giving the ball its expected path. So when it is no longer on the ball, it 'drops' to the table. Similar to LP blocking or low spin chops. Basically, the opponent thinks the ball will go longer than it really will.

A lot of times people will say "It just died on the table there! What happened!?"

Well... that is the spin giving out! I like to think of the spin as giving the ball energy, and when the spin runs out, so does the ball's energy. Hence, it DIES!

_________________
Innershield zlf
Tenergy 80 fx 1.7
Backhand: Curl p-4 OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 03:56 
Offline
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 13:38
Posts: 2264
Location: Washington DC
Has thanked: 519 times
Been thanked: 456 times
Blade: Defplay/Stiga All Carbon
FH: Gambler MechTek/T05
BH: Super FX Large Pore/T05
skilless_slapper wrote:
Spectol still gives pretty good sink. From my view, and talking around about it, sink is caused by the spin 'wearing out' on the ball. For example, with top spin balls you can predict where they'll go and how far. Everything is uniform. The ball uses the magnus effect to create that C shaped arc, and it usually has enough spin to maintain that path until the point has ended.

With the lower grip rubbers, say you loop or block back a top spin ball. The other player is used to seeing a top spin ball react a certain way. They think "Ok, it's going to dip about here and bounce about this high off the table." What actually happens though, is that the top spin "wears out" on the ball much sooner than expected. And it was the spin that was both maintaining and giving the ball its expected path. So when it is no longer on the ball, it 'drops' to the table. Similar to LP blocking or low spin chops. Basically, the opponent thinks the ball will go longer than it really will.

A lot of times people will say "It just died on the table there! What happened!?"

Well... that is the spin giving out! I like to think of the spin as giving the ball energy, and when the spin runs out, so does the ball's energy. Hence, it DIES!


To me, this is confusing, because if the ball has top, it will curve downward faster, which to me means the ball should hit sooner than a flat ball with less spin. Balls with less spin tend to sail. Balls with underspin REALLY sail...until they run out of underspin as you describe and then drop due to gravity.

So, by comparison (in my head) a topspin block should hit earlier because the magnus is pulling it down toward the table faster.

However, if the ball from the SP actually has underspin being returned, the spin "running out" theory would apply and it would drop/sink. Perhaps most SPs have reversed spin on blocks initially?

Where as, If you brush with SPs and manage a little topspin, those tend to look like they should hit sooner on the table, but often sail longer due to there being less magnus, if any.

This I know:
Magnus for underspin would keep the ball floating until it runs out. Magnus for topspin would pull the ball down toward the table, but if it runs out of spin it would do so later.

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!"Rating: 1615

Projects: Player Equipment Grid
Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 07:42 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 24 Apr 2011, 11:24
Posts: 504
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 128 times
Blade: Innershield ZLF
FH: Chop-City!
BH: Curl P-4 OX
Japsican wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Spectol still gives pretty good sink. From my view, and talking around about it, sink is caused by the spin 'wearing out' on the ball. For example, with top spin balls you can predict where they'll go and how far. Everything is uniform. The ball uses the magnus effect to create that C shaped arc, and it usually has enough spin to maintain that path until the point has ended.

With the lower grip rubbers, say you loop or block back a top spin ball. The other player is used to seeing a top spin ball react a certain way. They think "Ok, it's going to dip about here and bounce about this high off the table." What actually happens though, is that the top spin "wears out" on the ball much sooner than expected. And it was the spin that was both maintaining and giving the ball its expected path. So when it is no longer on the ball, it 'drops' to the table. Similar to LP blocking or low spin chops. Basically, the opponent thinks the ball will go longer than it really will.

A lot of times people will say "It just died on the table there! What happened!?"

Well... that is the spin giving out! I like to think of the spin as giving the ball energy, and when the spin runs out, so does the ball's energy. Hence, it DIES!


To me, this is confusing, because if the ball has top, it will curve downward faster, which to me means the ball should hit sooner than a flat ball with less spin. Balls with less spin tend to sail. Balls with underspin REALLY sail...until they run out of underspin as you describe and then drop due to gravity.

So, by comparison (in my head) a topspin block should hit earlier because the magnus is pulling it down toward the table faster.

However, if the ball from the SP actually has underspin being returned, the spin "running out" theory would apply and it would drop/sink. Perhaps most SPs have reversed spin on blocks initially?

Where as, If you brush with SPs and manage a little topspin, those tend to look like they should hit sooner on the table, but often sail longer due to there being less magnus, if any.

This I know:
Magnus for underspin would keep the ball floating until it runs out. Magnus for topspin would pull the ball down toward the table, but if it runs out of spin it would do so later.


Top spin drags the ball down toward the table. Underspin causes the ball to lift (float) upwards.

I don't think most SPs return backspin off a topspin block - could be dead/light spin depending on the amount coming in. From my perspective when playing with/against them, the amount of spin is exaggerated by the motion. You think it should have X amount of spin based on the stroke, but due to the reduced grip it has less than anticipated -- whether top or chop.

Even with the basic spectol, the guy I was playing started saying "Wooah! Look at dat crazy ball! Just die on table! So crazy!"

Also with top spin, if it was light top spin to start with, then the blocked top spin wouldn't last very long. So they see the top spin ball coming back and expect the regular dip and bounce -- but, the top spin (which was weak to start with), runs out and turns into a dead ball. Now, I'm sure you know how dead balls behave. They can wobble, drop, side to side etc. Although I think most SPs will return dead or light top spin balls, causing them to wobble and land at different times than anticipated. The grippy SPs like joola express ultra are essentially the same blocks as inverted.

But with any of them, if all you do is passive block... they become predictable a short while later. Less spin, different timing etc. all gets figured out.

The underspin blocks happen for me more with LP and anti. However, with anti I rarely ever get any sink effect. The reversal is so clean that the ball acts predictably from start to finish. With the LP, it's not uncommon for people to hold their off-hand out and try to catch the ball... only for it to drop down onto the table. And causing me to cackle maniacally, of course! The SP blocks are not quite as extreme, although they do have the ball dropping off in speed/spin often.

Image

_________________
Innershield zlf
Tenergy 80 fx 1.7
Backhand: Curl p-4 OX


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: geckotrader and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: