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 Post subject: Estimate USATT rating?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 20:35 
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I played at an unsanctioned tourney. The organizer put me at 1400 before the games.

I lost 1-3 to a 1500 player. We're evenly matched in most aspects except his FH loops are way more consistent. My FH was off that day, I missed a few easy shots. Was up 10-9 first game and it could have been 2-0 lead. Still I think he'll beat me every time since he has proper loops against low underspin.

Another game against a former collegiate player, I got about 4 points per game on average..

I beat two guys who loop but don't have serious spin or placement easily, by playing defense, pushing, and serves (I'm penhold). These guys have trouble with underspin.

Rest were all beatings by pretty advanced guys (I think some 2000+), but no 0-11... :rofl:

I think I'm probably 1350-1400, do you think that's about right?

For reference, I've been playing two years (used to get bit of coaching when young). Around average at most clubs. and around the best player at work (we play pretty competitively)

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 20:51 
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What are the ratings of the people you beat? I haven't looked at the USATT system for years but your estimate is probably about right. The system used to shuffle people into the vicinity of their true rating reasonably quickly, but it's always a bit difficult if there are large gaps between your closest win and loss.

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 21:08 
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Ma_Xin wrote:
...
I think I'm probably 1350-1400, do you think that's about right?
...



May be - the only way to find out, though, is to play several sanctioned tournaments to get enough data. As a separate piece of advice, don't focus on ratings too much, it's a useful yardstick, but not the goal in itself.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 03:31 
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Actually i talked to the trainer of those guys i beat. He walked in after we played and he said i should be at least 1000 based on the wins but that he didn't see me play. He also didn't know the scores.

I lost the first game as i was still thinking everyone was so strong. But then i realized i can win off their mistakes after a few loops. Or from spinny pushes serves. Afterwards it was 6 games where they got 6 or 7 points on average. I read somewhere that this is about 300 rating points difference.

The 1500 guy is closest to me tho skill set wise. So i figured 100-150 below him.

I literally walked in on this tournament. Not a lot of nerves

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 05:57 
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Well you are then likely above 1000 and under 1500 but it takes plenty of sanctioned tourneys to determine your actual rating.

Go to the US Nationals in Vegas and lose to some 8 yr old kid who is rated 850 on paper. Or beat some older person who is rated 1750...all of these can happen.

Don't worry about your rating too much...just work on getting better.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 10:27 
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Ma_Xin wrote:
Actually i talked to the trainer of those guys i beat. He walked in after we played and he said i should be at least 1000 based on the wins but that he didn't see me play. He also didn't know the scores.

I lost the first game as i was still thinking everyone was so strong. But then i realized i can win off their mistakes after a few loops. Or from spinny pushes serves. Afterwards it was 6 games where they got 6 or 7 points on average. I read somewhere that this is about 300 rating points difference.

The 1500 guy is closest to me tho skill set wise. So i figured 100-150 below him.

I literally walked in on this tournament. Not a lot of nerves


Don't read into skillsets or scores in games too much - it's not really a good way of estimating. You will also encounter people with specific styles that will throw off your scores. If you look at the RC terminology, you would be something like 1250 +/- 250 points.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 13:07 
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Ma_Xin wrote:
For reference, I've been playing two years (used to get bit of coaching when young). Around average at most clubs. and around the best player at work (we play pretty competitively)


Yeah, just go to another few tournaments. They're great for motivation, and you learn quite a bit.

Consistency in loops, etc. is one thing. But what really kills a rating and the ability to win games is serve and serve return. If you can't return serves, and can't serve well enough to generate third ball opportunities you can't put the rest of the game into use. People rated less than 1000 (i.e. people at work) are constantly falling prey to my serves, they often put them into the net or the ball goes sailing off the end of the table. And my serves really aren't that good.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 14:16 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Ma_Xin wrote:
For reference, I've been playing two years (used to get bit of coaching when young). Around average at most clubs. and around the best player at work (we play pretty competitively)


Yeah, just go to another few tournaments. They're great for motivation, and you learn quite a bit.

Consistency in loops, etc. is one thing. But what really kills a rating and the ability to win games is serve and serve return. If you can't return serves, and can't serve well enough to generate third ball opportunities you can't put the rest of the game into use. People rated less than 1000 (i.e. people at work) are constantly falling prey to my serves, they often put them into the net or the ball goes sailing off the end of the table. And my serves really aren't that good.

Iskandar


Yep, definitely agree about the importance of serves and return. I played my better 3 matches focusing on these two and attempting very few loops, to minimize errors and not give away easy points.

I also got into the mindset of a "top player" a little, if you will...I took my time with serves, and made my pushes low and spinny, and either short or really long. It also kept me pretty calm and conserved energy after 6 or 7 matches...

Truth be told, as low level as I am in the grand scheme of things...I played my best games when I felt like Ma Lin or Xu Xin, and part of me wants to keep hammering guys at work hahaha. I'm still a little tired and dazed 2 days after the tournament.

I played the old-man block and push style that I once despised :) I guess like you said, at higher levels than work the opportunities to loop need to be created, they don't just pop up a lot. When I try to loop more difficult balls my technique/footwork just aren't there yet.

As a side note, the guys at work are actually better than I thought. At least two of them cause more trouble for me than the two I beat at the tourney. Since they play every day, they can handle regular spin, and are more aggressive when it pays off tho they don't look good in practice. They do pop up semi-highs more often, as do I (but to a lesser extent) - a lot of points are won off a semblance of loop kills, which used to make me think I'm better than 1500 since I "proactively score" :lol:

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Last edited by Ma_Xin on 20 Mar 2018, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 14:30 
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And thanks for all the replies. I totally get the notion that the rating is just a rough approximate.

I do think I'll play at another tournament, maybe sanctioned. Seems these events still don't have umpires or spectators, and they really don't make me nervous compared to work or club play.

It'll be interesting to see when kind of forehand I have when I've done enough drills with the robot beforehand, etc. And obviously working on reading serves.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 18:13 
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It's not really that "rough". Play against someone rated 100 points above you and you'll lose maybe 70-80% of the time. Someone 200 points above you will beat you 90% of the time. 300 points? Unless he's got a sprained ankle or has the flu, forget it.. :lol:

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2018, 18:16 
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Gotta play enough matches to get an accurate rating before it's that accurate.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 14:42 
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iskandar taib wrote:
It's not really that "rough". Play against someone rated 100 points above you and you'll lose maybe 70-80% of the time. Someone 200 points above you will beat you 90% of the time. 300 points? Unless he's got a sprained ankle or has the flu, forget it.. :lol:

Iskandar


Interesting. I do think I could beat the 1500 guy 1 out of 5 times. If my FH had been normal that day and I wasn't already tired at Match 7, I would have hit a winner at 10-9 first game. Does it apply to best 2 out of 3? ;) I tend to do better at the beginning given I'm penhold.

Agree about the 300 point diff being "one level up".

Since we're on this topic, let me briefly recap the other matches and possible ratings:

(Background: lots of high level players, there's a 2300 player in another group, and he said he got a lucky win against someone. Total of 6 guys in my group)

1. Former collegiate player, hasn't trained much lately according to him. I got off to a 3-1 lead first game...first serve scored, then he made a mistake somewhere, then he missed a serve. After that, it quickly became 3-11 :rofl: All I remember is lots of loops that I reached but couldn't do much, and my bad returns. One of the other games I managed 7-7 once: He missed another serve; I botched my serve but he couldn't handle the high ball to his BH; and a misread high return with backspin, he hesitated and hit it into the net.

Overall, he has very good forms but makes a few more mistakes than the other guys. He's not as fast against them. He didn't seem to play well against the chopper. Maybe 500 points above me.

2. Middle-age player with so-so forms and funky serves. First game was tight till 8-8, we ate each other's serves sometimes. He loops with respectable power, and can counter my decent attacks, but he also tends to get a bit off balance and miss some easy balls. At 8-8, he changed up serves and I missed both, lost the game. The third game I won somehow without attacking much, he probably had a mental lapse. I lost 1-3 and got about 8 points on average in the games I lost.

I played him again in loser's bracket, Match 8. I was tired, and he probably got used to my serves. I only managed about 3 points a game. He counters a couple of my attacks like lightning that should have scored against weaker guys. Very deadly FH/BH and he can kill any of my balls if he's in position. I think he's 300 points above me.

3. Older penholder, Jpen SP. Doesn't move around much. Likes to defend sometimes and then rapid fire smashes to both corners. Serves mainly BH side and topspin. I stood too close and got jammed.

Only thing that sorta worked against him was my desperate banana flips. Got a few points. Could have made him give me some other serves if I started doing them earlier. Also got a few points off his fast balls because he doesn't move much. I got 4 points a game, he didn't play hard. 600 points above me?

4. Chopper. Mainly fishes/lobs on FH, a bit of LP on BH but the spin isn't that weird. Serves are predictable. I played okay against him. 6 points a game. I'm good at hitting high balls tho I lacked power being tired. He moved well, short/long balls didn't bother him. He had a really strong loop or punch out of nowhere from far away that surprised many. 500 points above me?

5. Very strong looper. Good high toss serves, lightning FH/BH flips, no errors and significant power and spin. Got 1 point each first 2 games. Rest of the way I just practiced attacking his serves. Got maybe 2 points from banana flips, 2 otherwise, he probably let me. I felt he has to be at least 2100.

And I do realize I'm too weak to make the guesses meaningful. I may be overstating their levels...

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 17:17 
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You'll be surprised - up to maybe 2000 or so you'll find people with "weird styles" who don't look like they're all that good but will consistently beat players rated below them. Stiff, old, ungainly, overweight, weird grip or strokes, you name it... but they'll still beat the pants off of you.

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 08:02 
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I don't think you can reasonably equate # points scored in a match with someone to extrapolate your relative rating. It doesn't work that way (unless you're taking it to deuce, or close). If you are playing someone much better, chances are good they won't try their hardest and will give up any number of points... or even lose a game. If you play someone over multiple matches and can consistently score a certain # of points, then maybe this formula can be applied.

Just my thought.


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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 00:48 
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What were the ratings of the 2 players u beat?


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