OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 26 Sep 2018, 22:25


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 21:05 
Online
Full member

Joined: 05 Dec 2017, 01:24
Posts: 59
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Blade: Butterfly Timo Ball allro
FH: Rakza 7 2,0mm
BH: Keiler 1,5 mm
This forehand with inverted is great with KKS5 but Bh seems to be my problem. I just tried same rubbers in Matador blade and BH was so much easier to use for me. I think Im too offensive player with my backhand for KKS5? I have to wait 15 years when im older and wiser. Then Ill take it again from the closet. :D

Regards

Soba


Top
 Profile  
 


PostPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 22:53 
Online
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 6922
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 853 times
And what exactly is KKS5? :lol: Always happens..

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 22:58 
Online
Full member

Joined: 05 Dec 2017, 01:24
Posts: 59
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Blade: Butterfly Timo Ball allro
FH: Rakza 7 2,0mm
BH: Keiler 1,5 mm
iskandar taib wrote:
And what exactly is KKS5? :lol: Always happens..

Iskandar


Here is it: https://re-impact.de/krenzer-konterspin-5-kks5.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 23:03 
Online
Full member

Joined: 05 Dec 2017, 01:24
Posts: 59
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Blade: Butterfly Timo Ball allro
FH: Rakza 7 2,0mm
BH: Keiler 1,5 mm
Now I get suggestion about rubbers for KKS5.
FH. Spinlord Marder 2 1,8mm
BH: Spinlord Stachelfeuer ox or Donic Alligator ox

Never tried those rubbers?

Soba


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 16:46 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 01:37
Posts: 1674
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 213 times
Soba wrote:
Now I get suggestion about rubbers for KKS5.
FH. Spinlord Marder 2 1,8mm
BH: Spinlord Stachelfeuer ox or Donic Alligator ox

Never tried those rubbers?

Soba


I have used Spinlord Marder on R-I blades and found it too bouncy (high catapult), offering low control as a consequence, even in 1.8mm. Friendship Focus 1 in 1.8mm, Friendship Skywing or KTL Rapid Soft or Rapid Sound in 2.0 mm proved better choices on thick balsa.

Spinlord Stachelfeuer is slow, but grippy, and thick balsa blades (when used for defense with spin-reversal) work best with slow LPs that have low grip, or with slow anti's that have none.

To expand on this, in fact balsa blades have an inherent problem when it comes to defending with LP using spin-reversal. Reversal is best when the grip of blade and rubber is low; with balsa, the grip is only low when its catapult is activated (high impact of the ball on the blade) and the ball rebounds with high speed; high speed, with LPs, implies low control. So, when you get good spin-reversal, you pay for this by having low control; for many players, in practice this means that their placement will be low in accuracy and many balls will fly over the table. If you try and solve this by decreasing the impact of the ball on the blade, for instance by blocking with a very relaxed wrist and light grip (like Neubauer, holding the handle loosely in your fingers), speed will be low indeed, as now the balsa will absorb the incoming speed; but you pay for this with an increased grip of the blade on the ball, as it now more or less acts as an extra layer of sponge underneath the rubber, and so reversal will be low as well. Balsa will as a rule offer high reversal combined with high speed and low control, and low reversal combined with low speed and high control. The former is impractical, the latter is harmless. Now, to make the blade work nonetheless, you have to use a rubber that will neutralize the blade's catapult considerably and also will prevent it from acting as an extra layer of sponge. Neutralizing the catapult means neutralizing the elasticity of the surface of the blade; preventing the blade from acting as a sponge also means neutralizing the elasticity of its surface; therefore you need an LP with a rubber sheet that has no elasticity at all, because when a sheet can't stretch, it neutralizes the elasticity of the blade's surface. This was the case with Frictionless LPs, which are now banned. So you have to get an LP hat comes close. If an LP offers low speed combined with low grip (moderate reversal) that will do the trick, most of the time. There aren't many of those around, however. That is why frictionless anti's with dampening sponges may be a better choice.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 21:16 
Online
Full member

Joined: 05 Dec 2017, 01:24
Posts: 59
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Blade: Butterfly Timo Ball allro
FH: Rakza 7 2,0mm
BH: Keiler 1,5 mm
Yes its tricky blade as we see. Those rubbers what i mentioned was Achim Rendlers sugestion. Ill try those, but now Im so satisfied with my Matador blade that Ill have to play with that and maybe after 4 months Ill try KKS5 again.

Regards

Timo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 14:40 
Online
Full member

Joined: 05 Dec 2017, 01:24
Posts: 59
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Blade: Butterfly Timo Ball allro
FH: Rakza 7 2,0mm
BH: Keiler 1,5 mm
Kees wrote:
Soba wrote:
Now I get suggestion about rubbers for KKS5.
FH. Spinlord Marder 2 1,8mm
BH: Spinlord Stachelfeuer ox or Donic Alligator ox

Never tried those rubbers?

Soba


I have used Spinlord Marder on R-I blades and found it too bouncy (high catapult), offering low control as a consequence, even in 1.8mm. Friendship Focus 1 in 1.8mm, Friendship Skywing or KTL Rapid Soft or Rapid Sound in 2.0 mm proved better choices on thick balsa.

Spinlord Stachelfeuer is slow, but grippy, and thick balsa blades (when used for defense with spin-reversal) work best with slow LPs that have low grip, or with slow anti's that have none.

To expand on this, in fact balsa blades have an inherent problem when it comes to defending with LP using spin-reversal. Reversal is best when the grip of blade and rubber is low; with balsa, the grip is only low when its catapult is activated (high impact of the ball on the blade) and the ball rebounds with high speed; high speed, with LPs, implies low control. So, when you get good spin-reversal, you pay for this by having low control; for many players, in practice this means that their placement will be low in accuracy and many balls will fly over the table. If you try and solve this by decreasing the impact of the ball on the blade, for instance by blocking with a very relaxed wrist and light grip (like Neubauer, holding the handle loosely in your fingers), speed will be low indeed, as now the balsa will absorb the incoming speed; but you pay for this with an increased grip of the blade on the ball, as it now more or less acts as an extra layer of sponge underneath the rubber, and so reversal will be low as well. Balsa will as a rule offer high reversal combined with high speed and low control, and low reversal combined with low speed and high control. The former is impractical, the latter is harmless. Now, to make the blade work nonetheless, you have to use a rubber that will neutralize the blade's catapult considerably and also will prevent it from acting as an extra layer of sponge. Neutralizing the catapult means neutralizing the elasticity of the surface of the blade; preventing the blade from acting as a sponge also means neutralizing the elasticity of its surface; therefore you need an LP with a rubber sheet that has no elasticity at all, because when a sheet can't stretch, it neutralizes the elasticity of the blade's surface. This was the case with Frictionless LPs, which are now banned. So you have to get an LP hat comes close. If an LP offers low speed combined with low grip (moderate reversal) that will do the trick, most of the time. There aren't many of those around, however. That is why frictionless anti's with dampening sponges may be a better choice.


I totally agree with this text. I have tried so many Lps and MPs with this balsa blade and its just like that. How about putting inverted on BH? Because FH is not so difficult to play with KKS5.

Soba


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 16:03 
Online
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 08 Jul 2017, 11:04
Posts: 338
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 88 times
Blade: S&T Black & White
FH: Armstrong SH-I 1.8
BH: TSP Curl P3 Alpha R OX
Kees wrote:

Spinlord Stachelfeuer is slow, but grippy, and thick balsa blades (when used for defense with spin-reversal) work best with slow LPs that have low grip, or with slow anti's that have none.

If an LP offers low speed combined with low grip (moderate reversal) that will do the trick, most of the time. There aren't many of those around, however.


I use P3aR which satisfies the above criteria (low speed/low grip) and it might be a better option for Soba than Stachelfeuer which I also tried. I play with it in much the same way that I used to play with anti, with only a couple of stroke adjustments.

I use it on a Firestarter, thin balsa core but seems to have reasonably hard outer plies. Perhaps the hard outer reduces dwell and helps with reversal, though the slowness of both LP & blade probably negates that. Nevertheless, for me, control is the priority.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 00:56 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 01:37
Posts: 1674
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 213 times
Quote:
How about putting inverted on BH? Because FH is not so difficult to play with KKS5.
Soba


That is actually what makes most sense and what the Re-Impact blades - as I understand it - were originally designed for. They were designed to suit players who had sustained injuries or were otherwise incapable of playing technically like regular players (e.g. lacking power), and allowed them to be fully (I mean that) competitive. That was (and is, in my opinion) their "magic".

You will need a tacky or sticky rubber with moderate to low catapult on both sides. Thickness of sponge for the forehand should be 1.8mm to 2.0mm, but not more, depending on how agressive you would like to play. For the backhand 1.5mm if you would like to block, 1.8mm if you would also like to hit and loop. You will find that these rubbers on a Re-Impact blade will be rather insensitive to incoming spin, but capable of producing huge amounts of spin themselves (not with great speed, though - but the spin suffices to defeat the opponent). You will also find that you will have to change your technique, contacting the ball on the rise always, and having the blade a bit more open than you would be used to. Tactics will have to change accordingly!

Blocking actively with a 1.5mm inverted rubber you will produce dead balls that will trouble the opponent a great deal, as they can be fast and very accurately placed. Looping with 1.8mm or 2.0mm inverted, the spin will be such that balls will be returned high and ready to be killed.

It takes time! You have to find the right technique (I will help if you will PM me). But it will be worth it. My youngest son played for years with Achim Rendlers blades and beat opponents much older and much more experienced again and again. Re-Impact blades work and are worth the money, but you have to be prepared to change technique and tactics. If you are, and will take your time, you will not be disappointed.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 01:01 
Offline
Call me Shrek!
User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2011, 12:38
Posts: 971
Location: California, USA
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 76 times
Blade: Hallmark Ultra
FH: Tenergy 05 FX max
BH: Rakza 7 Soft max
Kees, what rubber would you recommend for a looper BH and FH - on R-I Dream? I have max Rakza 7 soft on it (I don't use the blade in competition), just for fun, but I would like to explore the blade's potential. I am used to balsa blades, use Rakza 7 soft on Hallmark Ultra as a daily bat.

(edit: I see Rakza 7 soft is available in 1.8 and 2.0mm as well. Do you think this would work?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 01:18 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 01:37
Posts: 1674
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 213 times
PRW wrote:
Kees, what rubber would you recommend for a looper BH and FH - on R-I Dream? I have max Rakza 7 soft on it (I don't use the blade in competition), just for fun, but I would like to explore the blade's potential. I am used to balsa blades, use Rakza 7 soft on Hallmark Ultra as a daily bat.

(edit: I see Rakza 7 soft is available in 1.8 and 2.0mm as well. Do you think this would work?)


Yasaka makes great rubbers (and great blades; great defensive blades amongst them); the Rakza is a superb rubber, but its catapult is quite high. It may not be too high for someone whose technique is up to it (after all, Yasaka makes some balsa attacking blades and Rakza will function on it), but on a thick balsa Re-Impact blade max sponge may be thicker than you would want. I couldn't say without seeing you play with it. But if you feel you sometimes lack control (balls going long, placement inaccurate), go for 2.0mm on FH and 1.8mm on backhand. It may not be better, but it will be enough and may improve your control. I am absolutely sure, though, that a similar rubber with less forward punch, like KTL Rapid Soft or Sound, or Friendship Focus I, would increase your control much more and, if you could bring yourself to adapting your tactics to it, would increase your chances of winning games. If you have no problems with control, just go on using the rubber as you do! Maybe slow down forward speed somewhat in favour of producing topspin.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 01:31 
Offline
Call me Shrek!
User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2011, 12:38
Posts: 971
Location: California, USA
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 76 times
Blade: Hallmark Ultra
FH: Tenergy 05 FX max
BH: Rakza 7 Soft max
Kees wrote:
PRW wrote:
Kees, what rubber would you recommend for a looper BH and FH - on R-I Dream? I have max Rakza 7 soft on it (I don't use the blade in competition), just for fun, but I would like to explore the blade's potential. I am used to balsa blades, use Rakza 7 soft on Hallmark Ultra as a daily bat.

(edit: I see Rakza 7 soft is available in 1.8 and 2.0mm as well. Do you think this would work?)


Yasaka makes great rubbers (and great blades; great defensive blades amongst them); the Rakza is a superb rubber, but its catapult is quite high. It may not be too high for someone whose technique is up to it (after all, Yasaka makes some balsa attacking blades and Rakza will function on it), but on a thick balsa Re-Impact blade max sponge may be thicker than you would want. I couldn't say without seeing you play with it. But if you feel you sometimes lack control (balls going long, placement inaccurate), go for 2.0mm on FH and 1.8mm on backhand. It may not be better, but it will be enough and may improve your control. I am absolutely sure, though, that a similar rubber with less forward punch, like KTL Rapid Soft or Sound, or Friendship Focus I, would increase your control much more and, if you could bring yourself to adapting your tactics to it, would increase your chances of winning games. If you have no problems with control, just go on using the rubber as you do! Maybe slow down forward speed somewhat in favour of producing topspin.

I tried 1.8mm originally on the blade a couple of years ago (whatever rubber was recommended), and although I had great control, there wasn't enough power. With R7S max on it at the moment, I have great control, but it is a bit too mushy (I generally like a very soft feel, the Hallmark Ultra provides this while still with power). I will try the 2.0 and 1.8mm R7S, and report back! Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 01:39 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 01:37
Posts: 1674
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 213 times
PRW wrote:
Kees wrote:
PRW wrote:
Kees, what rubber would you recommend for a looper BH and FH - on R-I Dream? I have max Rakza 7 soft on it (I don't use the blade in competition), just for fun, but I would like to explore the blade's potential. I am used to balsa blades, use Rakza 7 soft on Hallmark Ultra as a daily bat.

(edit: I see Rakza 7 soft is available in 1.8 and 2.0mm as well. Do you think this would work?)


Yasaka makes great rubbers (and great blades; great defensive blades amongst them); the Rakza is a superb rubber, but its catapult is quite high. It may not be too high for someone whose technique is up to it (after all, Yasaka makes some balsa attacking blades and Rakza will function on it), but on a thick balsa Re-Impact blade max sponge may be thicker than you would want. I couldn't say without seeing you play with it. But if you feel you sometimes lack control (balls going long, placement inaccurate), go for 2.0mm on FH and 1.8mm on backhand. It may not be better, but it will be enough and may improve your control. I am absolutely sure, though, that a similar rubber with less forward punch, like KTL Rapid Soft or Sound, or Friendship Focus I, would increase your control much more and, if you could bring yourself to adapting your tactics to it, would increase your chances of winning games. If you have no problems with control, just go on using the rubber as you do! Maybe slow down forward speed somewhat in favour of producing topspin.

I tried 1.8mm originally on the blade a couple of years ago (whatever rubber was recommended), and although I had great control, there wasn't enough power. With R7S max on it at the moment, I have great control, but it is a bit too mushy (I generally like a very soft feel, the Hallmark Ultra provides this while still with power). I will try the 2.0 and 1.8mm R7S, and report back! Thanks!


Power is the central issue. I am tied up now, but I will respond in an hour or two.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 02:40 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 01:37
Posts: 1674
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 213 times
Balsa, if left to itself, will respond non-linear (and hence non-intuitive for most players) to contact with the ball. On high impact it will respond as if it is quite rigid and catapult the ball almost instantly away; on low impact it will respond as if it is quite soft and grip the ball and slow it down. It is therefore not, or only with extreme difficulty, possible to impart both great forward speed and great amounts of topspin on the ball, using balsa; imparting low or moderate forward speed and extremely high spin is, in contrast, almost easy.
Most brands will top off balsa with an outer ply that will neutralize this remarkable high and low catapult to some extent, in order to make the blade more predictable. Not so Re-Impact. Its designs increase the attributes of balsa. Why? Because for a certain class of players, or for any player whatsoever who will be willing to master new techniques and tactics, it is a boon most can only dream of.
Considering the history of table-tennis, it is quite clear that the most successful tactic, be it historical or at the present day, is to stay close to the table, where you have the best angles, and respond quickly, to outdo your opponent. This is what Re-Impact designs will allow you to do.
How to prevent being driven away off the table? First, you must be able to deal with high amounts of topspin; you must not be compelled to back off and let the spin diminish, no, you must be able to deal with it at the table, at once. Balsa will allow this. If you make firm contact with the ball, it will be catapulted away before the incoming spin can do harm; of course, this rules out countering incoming topspin with your own topspin – you must hit or block, establishing firm contact (instead of grazing the ball, establishing light contact). Blocking or hitting with rather high forward speed, using a Re-Impact blade, will produce a ball with little or no spin, and high speed, as if you were playing with short or medium pips. The opponent will have to return in kind, or lift the ball; most opponents will do the latter and lose time doing so. This is how the Re-Impact player will gain time and get the upper hand accordingly.
And as soon as the opportunity arises, that is, when a ball comes in at moderate or low speed, a Re-Impact blade will allow you to produce huge amounts of topspin by grazing the ball. An opponent who will try to block or re-loop, will at best produce a ball that will bounce high and be ready to killed, but many times his return will go too high and hence long.
Blocking fast balls and looping the other ones is what professionals do at the highest levels, using “ordinary” blades – not balsa blades. These blades allow them to back off when necessary, something you can’t do with a balsa blade (unless you have the very latest Re-Impact design, based on the R-I Rapier; but even then it is not advisable). In a way, then, Re-Impact balsa blades will allow you to use pro tactics, if you have amateur skills – but you do need to hone those skills!
And you can’t deviate from the tactics. Power-looping with Re-Impact blades is a no go, especially at mid-distance.
A number of Re-Impact models were designed for classic defence of for defence close to the table; in my opinion, they were much more successful with the now banned frictionless LP’s than with anything else. Using frictionless anti-spin rubbers will get you almost similar results; or a fine touch and rigorous defensive tactics, when you use almost frictionless LP’s like Tibhar Grass D’tecs.
But most Re-Impact blades really excel in allowing pro attacker tactics to players that lack the strength of pro’s. You do have to restrict yourself to blocking fast balls and looping the other ones, as well as killing the high balls. You also have to work on your strokes, which will have to be much shorter in execution; you won’t be able to contact the ball on the rise otherwise. No problem, though, as the design of the blade allows it and enhances the result.
If you can re-design your game within these restrictions, you will be most successful and be able to enjoy it for a long, long time as well, as it will take little power, though a lot of finesse. The more experienced you get, the better will be the results and you will be able to improve your game when others have to concede due to advanced age.
It is not magic, really, just very clever design on the part of the builder and great discipline on the part of the player. Power will get you nowhere with a Re-Impact blade; skill and finesse will.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 07:28 
Offline
Call me Shrek!
User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2011, 12:38
Posts: 971
Location: California, USA
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 76 times
Blade: Hallmark Ultra
FH: Tenergy 05 FX max
BH: Rakza 7 Soft max
thanks Kees, great explanation


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: darucla and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: