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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 19:43 
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My friend recently started playing with Long pips, I've heard about those rubbers but never really played against them. I get the gist of it, if they block with long pips, opposition get backspin and when they push or chop we get a wobbly top spinny ball. But none of my normal shots go well against the long pips. Often I'm getting a no spin flat ball, that when I try to push jumps up, when I try to flat hit goes into the net and when I top spin flies off the way too long. How do I counter against Long pips?


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 00:32 
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First before every match / practice, go to your opponent, present your racket and ask to inspect their racket.

If they let you look at their racket, then you can check what setup they are using.

1. OX LP , no sponge long bendy pips.

2. Sponge LP, thin sponge similar to No.1 .

3. OX SP/ MP, no sponge not very bendy pips, wide and big pip structure.

4. Sponge SP/MP, thin or max sponge similar to No.3 .

5. Anti- , Deadened Rubbers almost no reaction to any spin.


1 and 2, LPs have a lot of deception, either no-spin block returns or high-reversal spin returns.

3 and 4, SPs are either close table block, fish returns, wobble effect more pronounced, but slow.

2 and 4, Sponged Pips-Out rubbers can allow def-player to attack no-spin or under-spin balls.

1 and 3, some react/reverse less, some are super fast, some react/reverse almost 100%.

5 is a special category, lots of heavy "dead"-balls, no-spin returns, weird behaviour.


Also, you have to figure out what strategy you want to use against Pips-Out rubbers / Anti rubber players.

For me, I start with
1. no-spin, top-spin deception serve into the Pips-Out rubber,
2. then play neutral block or push return,
3. judge what spin persists on the ball, then go for the attack ( or again Step 2)

Based on the above basic steps, I determine the PO ( Pips-Out) rubber properties, high reversal, high return throw?, high speed?, chop-block wobble effect?, etc.

Then variation in the serves, and the return and the subsequent attack.

When playing against PO/Anti- def-players I always want to initiate the attack, I don't want the def-player to get comfortable with my loops or pushes. I don't want him to read my serves either.

So I try to keep the game very short, and try not to rally too much.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 14:33 
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ooak1102 wrote:
My friend recently started playing with Long pips, I've heard about those rubbers but never really played against them. I get the gist of it, if they block with long pips, opposition get backspin and when they push or chop we get a wobbly top spinny ball. But none of my normal shots go well against the long pips. Often I'm getting a no spin flat ball, that when I try to push jumps up, when I try to flat hit goes into the net and when I top spin flies off the way too long. How do I counter against Long pips?


No, it's actually a lot more complicated than that. The spin you get back depends on the PREVIOUS shot. If you give them topspin, it's coming back with backspin. If they get backspin, it's coming back topspin. If your doubles partner has a crazy side/top/backspin serve, tell him not to use it if the opponent has long pips, or YOU will be the one that has to deal with the weird spin.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 14:43 
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iskandar taib wrote:
ooak1102 wrote:
My friend recently started playing with Long pips, I've heard about those rubbers but never really played against them. I get the gist of it, if they block with long pips, opposition get backspin and when they push or chop we get a wobbly top spinny ball. But none of my normal shots go well against the long pips. Often I'm getting a no spin flat ball, that when I try to push jumps up, when I try to flat hit goes into the net and when I top spin flies off the way too long. How do I counter against Long pips?


No, it's actually a lot more complicated than that. The spin you get back depends on the PREVIOUS shot. If you give them topspin, it's coming back with backspin. If they get backspin, it's coming back topspin. If your doubles partner has a crazy side/top/backspin serve, tell him not to use it if the opponent has long pips, or YOU will be the one that has to deal with the weird spin.

Iskandar


Mostly what 'iskandar' said, but it's even more confusing than that: e.g. if you give me back spin and I attack it with what looks like inverted stroke (it isn't, but close enough) - amount of topspin you'll get is going to be much less than what you'd get from inverted, and you are likely to send it into the net (even players 200+ points above me do, so don't feel too bad 8) ).

In the end you need to practice against LP players and adjust. And yeah, serving complex spin to LP player is just asking for trouble, since it's going to come back to you in spades.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 18:39 
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My absolute greatest joy in Table Tennis by far is serving to a Long Pips and the ball doesn't make it to the net.

LPs are supposed to be so easy to return serves, right? Well, it isn't automatic, LP player still has to read spin. (but the LP player can have much more margin of safety in return than inverted)

What does this have to do with LP advice?

I am contrarian, spin variation is a good thing, but there is not much variation if the underspin serve isn't heavy. That is why I serve heavy right away to establish that serve and later go dead ball or light with same motion.

I get it though, pgpg and others' point is that if you cannot remember your own spin and the LP player gets the ball back, you are about to make an aggressive play not knowing the spin (and maybe also placement/timing)… that is as bad a moving entirely too fast in the wrong direction.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 20:41 
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iskandar taib wrote:
ooak1102 wrote:
My friend recently started playing with Long pips, I've heard about those rubbers but never really played against them. I get the gist of it, if they block with long pips, opposition get backspin and when they push or chop we get a wobbly top spinny ball. But none of my normal shots go well against the long pips. Often I'm getting a no spin flat ball, that when I try to push jumps up, when I try to flat hit goes into the net and when I top spin flies off the way too long. How do I counter against Long pips?


No, it's actually a lot more complicated than that. The spin you get back depends on the PREVIOUS shot. If you give them topspin, it's coming back with backspin. If they get backspin, it's coming back topspin. If your doubles partner has a crazy side/top/backspin serve, tell him not to use it if the opponent has long pips, or YOU will be the one that has to deal with the weird spin.

Iskandar

We play doubles often, but when a no spin serve is served, my friend easily flicks it or side-swipes it in a dangerous angle.

Another question is, if I backspin/chop/push to a LP, do I get back no spin/top spin when they push? What happens when they chop far from the table? Is it still backspin?


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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 20:45 
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pgpg wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
ooak1102 wrote:
My friend recently started playing with Long pips, I've heard about those rubbers but never really played against them. I get the gist of it, if they block with long pips, opposition get backspin and when they push or chop we get a wobbly top spinny ball. But none of my normal shots go well against the long pips. Often I'm getting a no spin flat ball, that when I try to push jumps up, when I try to flat hit goes into the net and when I top spin flies off the way too long. How do I counter against Long pips?


No, it's actually a lot more complicated than that. The spin you get back depends on the PREVIOUS shot. If you give them topspin, it's coming back with backspin. If they get backspin, it's coming back topspin. If your doubles partner has a crazy side/top/backspin serve, tell him not to use it if the opponent has long pips, or YOU will be the one that has to deal with the weird spin.

Iskandar


Mostly what 'iskandar' said, but it's even more confusing than that: e.g. if you give me back spin and I attack it with what looks like inverted stroke (it isn't, but close enough) - amount of topspin you'll get is going to be much less than what you'd get from inverted, and you are likely to send it into the net (even players 200+ points above me do, so don't feel too bad 8) ).

In the end you need to practice against LP players and adjust. And yeah, serving complex spin to LP player is just asking for trouble, since it's going to come back to you in spades.

I'm still not getting it, if I backspin to a LP, do I get back topspin regardless of whatever stroke they use?


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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 22:10 
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ooak1102 wrote:
I'm still not getting it, if I backspin to a LP, do I get back topspin regardless of whatever stroke they use?

No. Depends heavily how your opponent contacts the ball:

- "bump"
stroke with almost vertical blade (surface of rubber parallel to net) shortly after the ball bounce -> if done light, the ball skids on top of pimples and spin is "reversed". This stroke results in light topspin. If the bump is done with firm contact, ball bends the pimples and is gripped from all sides thus reducing the spin. Here you get mostly no spin.

- "dig"/"slice"/"push"
heavy contact with opened blade (surface of rubber more parallel to table) at any time, but much easier to control, if ball falls -> ball is gripped by base of pimples. Now backspin CAN be created, even heavy backspin, if a lot of wrist is used (check videos of Ruwen Filus who often scores points with a push against backspin and his opponent nets the ball). Less wrist -> less spin or even no spin. Btw: this is the stroke, where LP beginners make the most errors. If there is not enough wrist, the ball tends to rise. Too much contact, and you'll feel the incoming spin... And it is the stroke, where LP experts score the majority of points, as the can vary the spin from little to quite heavy with little hints to the opponent.

Conclusion: You have to be very attentive to the slight hints given by your opponent's movements and blade orientation. Even the sound when (s)he hits the ball gives you clues about the spin to expect.

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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2019, 03:15 
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0x556c69 wrote:
ooak1102 wrote:
I'm still not getting it, if I backspin to a LP, do I get back topspin regardless of whatever stroke they use?

No. Depends heavily how your opponent contacts the ball:

- "bump"
stroke with almost vertical blade (surface of rubber parallel to net) shortly after the ball bounce -> if done light, the ball skids on top of pimples and spin is "reversed". This stroke results in light topspin. If the bump is done with firm contact, ball bends the pimples and is gripped from all sides thus reducing the spin. Here you get mostly no spin.

- "dig"/"slice"/"push"
heavy contact with opened blade (surface of rubber more parallel to table) at any time, but much easier to control, if ball falls -> ball is gripped by base of pimples. Now backspin CAN be created, even heavy backspin, if a lot of wrist is used (check videos of Ruwen Filus who often scores points with a push against backspin and his opponent nets the ball). Less wrist -> less spin or even no spin. Btw: this is the stroke, where LP beginners make the most errors. If there is not enough wrist, the ball tends to rise. Too much contact, and you'll feel the incoming spin... And it is the stroke, where LP experts score the majority of points, as the can vary the spin from little to quite heavy with little hints to the opponent.

Conclusion: You have to be very attentive to the slight hints given by your opponent's movements and blade orientation. Even the sound when (s)he hits the ball gives you clues about the spin to expect.

Looks like it would be a lot easier to just stick LP for my backhand too. Seems too easy to beat opponents with a LP at an amateur level instead of wasting time trying to learn backhand topspin.


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2019, 05:25 
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ooak1102 wrote:
Looks like it would be a lot easier to just stick LP for my backhand too. Seems too easy to beat opponents with a LP at an amateur level instead of wasting time trying to learn backhand topspin.

- Nobody said it would be easy to do so. It takes years developing the right feel for the ball.
- Experienced attackers will NOT feed you push balls, at least not regularly. You can handle topspin well with LP, but spin manipulation is limited and you'll probably have to defend.
- You have to learn to twiddle and execute a backhand topspin anyway. This is not a wast of time - and it's fun. I like the look of an attacker who waits for the push or chop but instead is confronted with a loop.

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Last edited by 0x556c69 on 08 Feb 2019, 20:37, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2019, 06:13 
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0x556c69 wrote:
ooak1102 wrote:
Looks like it would be a lot easier to just stick LP for my backhand too. Seems too easy to beat opponents with a LP at an amateur level instead of wasting time trying to learn backhand topspin.

- Nobody said it would be easy to do so. It takes years developing the right feel for the ball.
- Experienced attackers will NOT feed you push balls, at least not regularly. You can handle topspin well with LP, but spin manipulation is limited and you'll probably have to defend.
- You have to learn to twiddle and execute a backhand topspin anyway. This is not a wast of time - and it's fun. I like the look of an attacker who waits for the push or chop but instead is confronted by a loop.

But playing with specific equipment or style is indeed a very good way of learning how to play against that equipment or style.


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2019, 07:16 
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It is easier to play vs long pips if you use a slow inverted rubber and blade for control.

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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2019, 17:05 
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LOOPOVER wrote:
It is easier to play vs long pips if you use a slow inverted rubber and blade for control.

May be since this is my first time facing LP, I'm having trouble. It feels very weird, I get no spin flat balls which go over the board if I drive or topspin and pops up if I push it resulting in a easy kill.


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 00:20 
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ooak1102 wrote:
LOOPOVER wrote:
It is easier to play vs long pips if you use a slow inverted rubber and blade for control.

May be since this is my first time facing LP, I'm having trouble. It feels very weird, I get no spin flat balls which go over the board if I drive or topspin and pops up if I push it resulting in a easy kill.


You can go to North Little Rock Table Tennis Group timeline page on Facebook, read the intro, will give you a lot of info and coaching refence links of how to play vs long pips.

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