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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 00:21 
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mickd wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
On the forehand versus backspin, you also need for optimal results to lean over the right foot with your torso fold.


Oh wow. My coach (who was the coach for the Japanese national team for a period and played at a very high level) said the same thing last week!

He was getting me to lean over my left foot (left hander) with my torso fold against underspin.

Image


And you can see how his foot is pointing sideways so he can support his lean and rotation. And he is parallel to the table and not pivoting. If he were pivoting, then he would need to turn his whole body aside on to the table. And then the hip rotation and lean could send his foot pointing even further back.

Hope that makes sense.

If you watch LTT93, you see all this. I am not inventing anything. You can twist both feet sideways like your coach did, and this is what BRS was taught. This is how many top players, including Harimoto, play. I just rotate over a knee pointing sideways so I can put more lean on it comfortably. I think my shadow does usually rotate both feet.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 00:25 
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fastmover wrote:
NextLevel, believe me or not, I have no idea what you are talking about. I genuinely try to make sense of what you are saying and I cannot. I could not do this two pages ago, I can't do it now. I even drew a picture, but all my efforts are futile. I think I am done with this.


It is okay, fastmover. If LTT93 or the exercise to lean with the right foot pointing towards the table while facing the table vs the right foot pointing sideways while facing the table don't illustrate that side on is more to give you space to lean and use the hip to spin yourself back into balance, then hopefully Brett can do better. And if he can't remotely, then it will wait until the next camp. This is assuming he agrees with me as maybe when you post your video, this will be moot.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 00:35 
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Thanks NL. I see what you mean. I actually misunderstood what you were saying earlier. I thought you were saying to have your foot pointing more straight forward instead of sideways (fastmover had you interpreted right). So I was interested in hearing why.

It makes sense to me since it's what I'm mostly doing now too.

Here's my pivot during a multiball drill (backhand ball, pivot forehand, then one more forehand in the middle, then back to backhand). I rarely do pivot drills. I think the last one I did was a few months ago. I wasn't thinking about footwork when doing this, so my footwork is just what happened naturally.

https://youtu.be/4WeHXLCNb_g

What do you think about the relationship between knees, leg and foot angle here?


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 00:47 
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fastmover wrote:
Image

Dude, we have jobs.

IMO both your feet should ve pointing roughly in the same direction, say less than 45 degrees diff. I got left back in geometry, so maybe less than 30. If left foot points forward and right foot points 90 degrees sideways you will fall on your ass after the swing.

For a true pivot both feet should face side on to the table. Again, imo. I hate to pivot, so you probably shouldn't take any advice from me. But I am a world-class expert on making a first loop and falling back on my ass. Probably wr top 50 at that.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 00:48 
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I'm still confused how I ended up knowing all of this after the camp without any real instruction on this specifically.

When I saw Brett pivot for the first time, on 4 hours of sleep, pivot and loop at me...it was terrifying. He didn't attack the ball that hard, but the aggressive movement was an eye opener.


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 02:50 
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Seeing is prolly better than words. We are using wrong terms imo.

The shot wilkinru tore to shreds is not a pivot. We hardly ever play a real pivot. We just turn sideways behind the table to buy some time bc we are too fat and lazy to move left and play a proper fh.

A pivot is a pivot bc your body pivots around a point. The point is the bh corner of the table. So if your entire body isn't off the bh side and facing side-on, you didn't pivot. You just played a crappy fh bc you didn't move. That's practically the only kind of "pivot" I ever play. Maybe once in a thousand on receive I actually go around the table. All the rest are just bad fhs.

What brett did to Russ was probably a proper pivot and I agree, it's terrifying.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 03:53 
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BRS wrote:

The shot wilkinru tore to shreds is not a pivot. We hardly ever play a real pivot. We just turn sideways behind the table to buy some time bc we are too fat and lazy to move left and play a proper fh.


Just remember...I want you guys to get better. I want you to serve that serve that gets you the ball you expect and be able to really attack it while being ready for the next ball. I just randomly saw that shot and I think if fastmover improved this, his level floor at least would be higher. Maybe even a few rating points.

Winning a couple of easy points per set against most players we face is worth some shreding.


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 07:37 
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Not all pivots are terrifying third ball pivots. It is like saying only a professional loop is a proper loop. I mean if I pop up the ball and BRS uses his forehand from the backhand corner, it is a pivot, just not a demanding one.

Fastmover pivots he just cheats on it like many pros do as they get exposed if the opponent goes the other way.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 07:42 
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mickd wrote:
Thanks NL. I see what you mean. I actually misunderstood what you were saying earlier. I thought you were saying to have your foot pointing more straight forward instead of sideways (fastmover had you interpreted right). So I was interested in hearing why.

It makes sense to me since it's what I'm mostly doing now too.

Here's my pivot during a multiball drill (backhand ball, pivot forehand, then one more forehand in the middle, then back to backhand). I rarely do pivot drills. I think the last one I did was a few months ago. I wasn't thinking about footwork when doing this, so my footwork is just what happened naturally.

https://youtu.be/4WeHXLCNb_g

What do you think about the relationship between knees, leg and foot angle here?


This illustrates perfectly what I meant as at some points you can see that your racket foot is pointing back towards the camera and you consistently move off both feet. But it is not something I would care about by itself unless you just went getting the sufficient turn to place the ball into the opposite corner with ease or you struggled to deal with a backspin ball.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 09:52 
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NextLevel wrote:
Not all pivots are terrifying third ball pivots. It is like saying only a professional loop is a proper loop. I mean if I pop up the ball and BRS uses his forehand from the backhand corner, it is a pivot, just not a demanding one.

Fastmover pivots he just cheats on it like many pros do as they get exposed if the opponent goes the other way.


We disagree about defining our terms like I said. To me a pivot by definition means you went around the bh corner and your body is not behind the table.

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 09:58 
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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 12:47 
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I can't stop watching this serve.
https://youtu.be/hCbDwBrnbD4?list=PL5K1 ... RFDx&t=143

This is the leg picking up during the serve yeah? I love the spin he gets here. I can get this effect but rarely hugs the net quite like that.


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 18:14 
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What gets me whenever I watch a pro video these days is how on most of the shots, like the Dima serve video, the shoulder joint is being propelled over a fairly large distance. Then I watch my videos, I see my shoulder joint propelled over a short distance and I shake my head...

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 18:20 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Not all pivots are terrifying third ball pivots. It is like saying only a professional loop is a proper loop. I mean if I pop up the ball and BRS uses his forehand from the backhand corner, it is a pivot, just not a demanding one.

Fastmover pivots he just cheats on it like many pros do as they get exposed if the opponent goes the other way.


We disagree about defining our terms like I said. To me a pivot by definition means you went around the bh corner and your body is not behind the table.


That's fair. Is the footwork different if you don't go round the corner vs if you do on a forehand ball to your backhand? And if you don't go round because you want to make a cross vs a block to your forehand, is that why it is no longer a pivot?

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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 12:06 
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NextLevel wrote:
BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Not all pivots are terrifying third ball pivots. It is like saying only a professional loop is a proper loop. I mean if I pop up the ball and BRS uses his forehand from the backhand corner, it is a pivot, just not a demanding one.


Fastmover pivots he just cheats on it like many pros do as they get exposed if the opponent goes the other way.


We disagree about defining our terms like I said. To me a pivot by definition means you went around the bh corner and your body is not behind the table.


That's fair. Is the footwork different if you don't go round the corner vs if you do on a forehand ball to your backhand? And if you don't go round because you want to make a cross vs a block to your forehand, is that why it is no longer a pivot?


I think the footwork should be different. I am making an error when I turn sideways to play a fh that lands on the bh side where the ball in fastmover's point landed. I don't turn sideways to play a fh on the fh side. So why should I turn sideways to play one on the bh side? If I can't move well enough to shift my normal fh stance to the left for that ball, then I have to play bhs from there.

It makes sense to do a true pivot off the side of the table in a few specific and pretty rare situations. Mainly vs lobbers, or on a pop-up, or when I get a very early read that the serve will be long to my bh.

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