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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 01:36 
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Joo Too
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Def-attack wrote:
Thanks.
I feel I might go with inverted later, but I need time to adapt and therefore SP or MP might be somewhere in between.

About keeping the anti... I play well at practice against my well known friends. But at matches I have troubles using those shots I can do at practice, there isn’t enough time for it. So I play much more passively at matches. And that leads nowhere but to an easily attacked ball for my opponennt to kill (since there is no spin in the ball). Therefore I figured that the best way to stay to the path I started this autumn, with an overall more aggressive game, is to use MP. This way I get the help I need for service returns, I can lift and attack back spin well with some wobbling effect, and I can block loops and keep the ball low. If I can put away some high balls to my FH that would be good. But keeping the ball low is the key I think. A more secure anti would do the same, but since there is no back spin in blocks any longer I don’t see any point in using that. An LP would be much better, but that would probably not work with my blade. And passive blocking with LP has the same problem as passive blockinng with anti, and learning chop blocking will take too much time. And I don’t want to go in that direction for the moment.

So I am pretty much decided for some kind of half fast, half secure allround but deceptive MP with about 1,5 mm sponge. At least I will give it a real chance. But, I might wait until late March when our last league matches are played..


Ok, but you're throwing away your game with anti if like you're saying it does work with regular training partners. I think you're stating the problem in your answer: if you don't have enough time to execute your strokes, making you a more passive player, then IMO the solution is not changing equipment. You'll have the same problem there. The solution lies in creating more time. If that's the case, you want to work on your first three strokes (serve, receive, third ball). Heightening the quality of these strokes will result in more time.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 01:47 
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Iron Pips
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Thanks.
I feel I might go with inverted later, but I need time to adapt and therefore SP or MP might be somewhere in between.

About keeping the anti... I play well at practice against my well known friends. But at matches I have troubles using those shots I can do at practice, there isn’t enough time for it. So I play much more passively at matches. And that leads nowhere but to an easily attacked ball for my opponennt to kill (since there is no spin in the ball). Therefore I figured that the best way to stay to the path I started this autumn, with an overall more aggressive game, is to use MP. This way I get the help I need for service returns, I can lift and attack back spin well with some wobbling effect, and I can block loops and keep the ball low. If I can put away some high balls to my FH that would be good. But keeping the ball low is the key I think. A more secure anti would do the same, but since there is no back spin in blocks any longer I don’t see any point in using that. An LP would be much better, but that would probably not work with my blade. And passive blocking with LP has the same problem as passive blockinng with anti, and learning chop blocking will take too much time. And I don’t want to go in that direction for the moment.

So I am pretty much decided for some kind of half fast, half secure allround but deceptive MP with about 1,5 mm sponge. At least I will give it a real chance. But, I might wait until late March when our last league matches are played..


Ok, but you're throwing away your game with anti if like you're saying it does work with regular training partners. I think you're stating the problem in your answer: if you don't have enough time to execute your strokes, making you a more passive player, then IMO the solution is not changing equipment. You'll have the same problem there. The solution lies in creating more time. If that's the case, you want to work on your first three strokes (serve, receive, third ball). Heightening the quality of these strokes will result in more time.


This could be true, not really sure. But I also feel that those difficult shots I try to learn do not pay off very well. With faster antis (Gorilla and Power attack) I got something back but then I could not really block attacks safely. With Diabolic I can block most attacks and keep them on the table but they just return the ball without spin deep to my BH and I am in trouble. So I feel I do not win much from using anti anymore. Perhaps I could practice more and get better at keeping the ball low all the time. Low and dead usually is good...

When I used Gorilla it felt good to be able to attack with BH without having to twiddle... but as soon as one attacked to by BH I was lost. So perhaps I just want to attack more on BH?

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 02:26 
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This is pretty much how I want to use my BH (but it looks like he uses it without sponge):
http://youtu.be/sBHF7NT639Q

And this is pretty cool (Dawei 388C-1): http://youtu.be/WxzS7ZE0DQs

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 02:52 
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Def-attack wrote:

So.... any suggestions or words of encouragement? Or should I put up with the anti those last two months of our league? My team is in top position, and actually, I am at my highest ranking so far, even though I have lost quite a few matches lately, against clearly lower ranked players. But that is not the main issue, I need to feel that TT is fun when playing matches again... That was not my feeling last league gatering (last Sunday) or at our local old boys league tonight :(.

I am going through that almost exactly.
Playing modern D with LPs became no fun for me, so I turned to Jpen for fun, and now double inverted SH as well. I am considerably worse because I haven't trained with it for nearly as much time as chopping, but it's coming along (very) slowly.
I was debating between winning and having fun, because unfortunately those 2 things were not coinciding.

I have the most fun with my Jpen, but I am around 1100-1200 with that setup (big drop). I am more competitive with SH of course, as it's been years since I played Jpen. For my SH setup, I'm debating between double inverted and inverted backhand/SP forehand.

It's been an adventure so far. Last night I toyed with LPs again chopping with my partner. I was instantly reminded of why I stopped....so I have no desire to go back yet....but never say never of course. :lol: Gotta leave that door open.

I say, follow your heart, and play both styles for a while, and then eventually taper out the anti. That way you an still be the same asset to your team that you are now. However, if you feel you can get back up to a good level right away, then GO FOR IT! I really liked 563 and Pluto on the BH btw.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 03:15 
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Japsican wrote:
Def-attack wrote:

So.... any suggestions or words of encouragement? Or should I put up with the anti those last two months of our league? My team is in top position, and actually, I am at my highest ranking so far, even though I have lost quite a few matches lately, against clearly lower ranked players. But that is not the main issue, I need to feel that TT is fun when playing matches again... That was not my feeling last league gatering (last Sunday) or at our local old boys league tonight :(.

I am going through that almost exactly.
Playing modern D with LPs became no fun for me, so I turned to Jpen for fun, and now double inverted SH as well. I am considerably worse because I haven't trained with it for nearly as much time as chopping, but it's coming along (very) slowly.
I was debating between winning and having fun, because unfortunately those 2 things were not coinciding.

I have the most fun with my Jpen, but I am around 1100-1200 with that setup (big drop). I am more competitive with SH of course, as it's been years since I played Jpen. For my SH setup, I'm debating between double inverted and inverted backhand/SP forehand.

It's been an adventure so far. Last night I toyed with LPs again chopping with my partner. I was instantly reminded of why I stopped....so I have no desire to go back yet....but never say never of course. :lol: Gotta leave that door open.

I say, follow your heart, and play both styles for a while, and then eventually taper out the anti. That way you an still be the same asset to your team that you are now. However, if you feel you can get back up to a good level right away, then GO FOR IT! I really liked 563 and Pluto on the BH btw.

Thanks for sharing!

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 22:48 
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Def-attack wrote:
This could be true, not really sure. But I also feel that those difficult shots I try to learn do not pay off very well. With faster antis (Gorilla and Power attack) I got something back but then I could not really block attacks safely. With Diabolic I can block most attacks and keep them on the table but they just return the ball without spin deep to my BH and I am in trouble. So I feel I do not win much from using anti anymore. Perhaps I could practice more and get better at keeping the ball low all the time. Low and dead usually is good...

When I used Gorilla it felt good to be able to attack with BH without having to twiddle... but as soon as one attacked to by BH I was lost. So perhaps I just want to attack more on BH?


"But I also feel that those difficult shots I try to learn do not pay off very well." That's why trying to play with flanti/LP has a very steep learning curve from a certain point onwards. The question is if you want to invest the time into the style.

It might be better to lower the bar a bit. You want something that's safe enough to block, but is fast enough to attack with? Then you must find an anti that's between those extremes. Surely there must exist something like that, something like an allround LP, but in the anti world. That certainly willl lower the bar quite a bit.

Of course you want to attack with your BH. I'm quite certain it's possible with flanti. But don't expect to loop people with dead balls of the table. :lol: If you want a loop, a real loop in your game, then inverted is the way. Otherwise stick with the style you're currently playing.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 23:24 
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
This could be true, not really sure. But I also feel that those difficult shots I try to learn do not pay off very well. With faster antis (Gorilla and Power attack) I got something back but then I could not really block attacks safely. With Diabolic I can block most attacks and keep them on the table but they just return the ball without spin deep to my BH and I am in trouble. So I feel I do not win much from using anti anymore. Perhaps I could practice more and get better at keeping the ball low all the time. Low and dead usually is good...

When I used Gorilla it felt good to be able to attack with BH without having to twiddle... but as soon as one attacked to by BH I was lost. So perhaps I just want to attack more on BH?


"But I also feel that those difficult shots I try to learn do not pay off very well." That's why trying to play with flanti/LP has a very steep learning curve from a certain point onwards. The question is if you want to invest the time into the style.

It might be better to lower the bar a bit. You want something that's safe enough to block, but is fast enough to attack with? Then you must find an anti that's between those extremes. Surely there must exist something like that, something like an allround LP, but in the anti world. That certainly willl lower the bar quite a bit.

Of course you want to attack with your BH. I'm quite certain it's possible with flanti. But don't expect to loop people with dead balls of the table. :lol: If you want a loop, a real loop in your game, then inverted is the way. Otherwise stick with the style you're currently playing.


When I first tried anti I actually went for Juic Neo anti. But Auzcar had a used BAD 0,7 mm that he sent me and I thought that was rather fun. So just like that I decided to go frictionless. It took a year to learn. A year ago I played very good with it, got some really nice wins. And this summer all felt good, I had no intention to change anything.

Then came the ABS-ball .....

And my style was suddenly hopeless. I know it sounds very strange that a ball can do that much, and it is only for passive blocks it shows (so mosty users lf frictionless anti notices it). And I can surly learn to keep the ball low at blocks, but knowing how the effect was with other balls is just painful. It is like you should buy a cheap bad blade and decide to go with that instead of a real blade. For no particular reason. So the steep learning curve is way steeper with ABS-ball and also the outcome is way weaker with this ball. To me there simply is no good reason for staying with the anti, unless something changes (new balls, new antis that is not spin sensitive).

But back the start of my anti-era... I could go back and use neo anti or some similar again. But I am not sure why that would be better that for example Hellcat. I still need to change my whole game pattern, so I might as well do it for a rubber that I feel encouraged to use. The difference between frictionless anti and other antis are probably as big as to MP or SP or LP. I could go with some LP that is good for blocking and attacking as well. But that is pretty much the same as an MP. And I want some speed on my BH.

I will probably stick to my setup one more month, to finish my season. I do it for my team mates. But I have already ordered a 1,5 mm Hellcat. That, and Aggressor 1,5 mm and GD 8228A 1,8 mm are the once I will evaluate. I also have a ox 563 that I will glue to some sponge and try out. I have a spare but broken Stiga Carbonado 190 blade to try them on. The Aggressor has been glued to it for a few weeks. But I will put Hellcat there when I get it. Next session (tuesday) I will see how it blocks and how it is for driving back topspins.

But I will only use it for like 30 minutes, then back to Diabolic. And it might be that my internal dissonance that makes me play poorly (I hesitate what strokes to use because I know my BH strokes are bad, so I make wrong decissions and have no fluid game) will be removed with a few more sessions, I don’t know. But I will still give the MP’s a real chance, but perhaps later...

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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 22:13 
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Def-attack wrote:
When I first tried anti I actually went for Juic Neo anti. But Auzcar had a used BAD 0,7 mm that he sent me and I thought that was rather fun. So just like that I decided to go frictionless. It took a year to learn. A year ago I played very good with it, got some really nice wins. And this summer all felt good, I had no intention to change anything.

Then came the ABS-ball .....

And my style was suddenly hopeless. I know it sounds very strange that a ball can do that much, and it is only for passive blocks it shows (so mosty users lf frictionless anti notices it). And I can surly learn to keep the ball low at blocks, but knowing how the effect was with other balls is just painful. It is like you should buy a cheap bad blade and decide to go with that instead of a real blade. For no particular reason. So the steep learning curve is way steeper with ABS-ball and also the outcome is way weaker with this ball. To me there simply is no good reason for staying with the anti, unless something changes (new balls, new antis that is not spin sensitive).

But back the start of my anti-era... I could go back and use neo anti or some similar again. But I am not sure why that would be better that for example Hellcat. I still need to change my whole game pattern, so I might as well do it for a rubber that I feel encouraged to use. The difference between frictionless anti and other antis are probably as big as to MP or SP or LP. I could go with some LP that is good for blocking and attacking as well. But that is pretty much the same as an MP. And I want some speed on my BH.

I will probably stick to my setup one more month, to finish my season. I do it for my team mates. But I have already ordered a 1,5 mm Hellcat. That, and Aggressor 1,5 mm and GD 8228A 1,8 mm are the once I will evaluate. I also have a ox 563 that I will glue to some sponge and try out. I have a spare but broken Stiga Carbonado 190 blade to try them on. The Aggressor has been glued to it for a few weeks. But I will put Hellcat there when I get it. Next session (tuesday) I will see how it blocks and how it is for driving back topspins.

But I will only use it for like 30 minutes, then back to Diabolic. And it might be that my internal dissonance that makes me play poorly (I hesitate what strokes to use because I know my BH strokes are bad, so I make wrong decissions and have no fluid game) will be removed with a few more sessions, I don’t know. But I will still give the MP’s a real chance, but perhaps later...


I see. Wouldn't it be better to go with dead balls then as a game plan? In that case the route you're planning to go is better for this type of play I reckon.

You have an Aggressor on the way. Would you mind sharing some chopping experience with me in this blog when trying it? I read some good things about it from a poster here (I forgot his name :( ). I know the blade isn't the most appropiate to use for chopping, but it might tell something. And you learn to chop with it when in need.

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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 22:51 
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
When I first tried anti I actually went for Juic Neo anti. But Auzcar had a used BAD 0,7 mm that he sent me and I thought that was rather fun. So just like that I decided to go frictionless. It took a year to learn. A year ago I played very good with it, got some really nice wins. And this summer all felt good, I had no intention to change anything.

Then came the ABS-ball .....

And my style was suddenly hopeless. I know it sounds very strange that a ball can do that much, and it is only for passive blocks it shows (so mosty users lf frictionless anti notices it). And I can surly learn to keep the ball low at blocks, but knowing how the effect was with other balls is just painful. It is like you should buy a cheap bad blade and decide to go with that instead of a real blade. For no particular reason. So the steep learning curve is way steeper with ABS-ball and also the outcome is way weaker with this ball. To me there simply is no good reason for staying with the anti, unless something changes (new balls, new antis that is not spin sensitive).

But back the start of my anti-era... I could go back and use neo anti or some similar again. But I am not sure why that would be better that for example Hellcat. I still need to change my whole game pattern, so I might as well do it for a rubber that I feel encouraged to use. The difference between frictionless anti and other antis are probably as big as to MP or SP or LP. I could go with some LP that is good for blocking and attacking as well. But that is pretty much the same as an MP. And I want some speed on my BH.

I will probably stick to my setup one more month, to finish my season. I do it for my team mates. But I have already ordered a 1,5 mm Hellcat. That, and Aggressor 1,5 mm and GD 8228A 1,8 mm are the once I will evaluate. I also have a ox 563 that I will glue to some sponge and try out. I have a spare but broken Stiga Carbonado 190 blade to try them on. The Aggressor has been glued to it for a few weeks. But I will put Hellcat there when I get it. Next session (tuesday) I will see how it blocks and how it is for driving back topspins.

But I will only use it for like 30 minutes, then back to Diabolic. And it might be that my internal dissonance that makes me play poorly (I hesitate what strokes to use because I know my BH strokes are bad, so I make wrong decissions and have no fluid game) will be removed with a few more sessions, I don’t know. But I will still give the MP’s a real chance, but perhaps later...


I see. Wouldn't it be better to go with dead balls then as a game plan? In that case the route you're planning to go is better for this type of play I reckon.

You have an Aggressor on the way. Would you mind sharing some chopping experience with me in this blog when trying it? I read some good things about it from a poster here (I forgot his name :( ). I know the blade isn't the most appropiate to use for chopping, but it might tell something. And you learn to chop with it when in need.


Dead balls can be good, pace and spin gone makes it difficult to many. And Juic Neo Anti is superb for that. I might give it a go again. But for now I want more speed, it is more fun right now :)

I already have the Aggressor (bought it in April or so). It is a little too fast for controlled chops and I have mostly used it on stiff blades. MP and SP works best on such blades I think, at least for blocking. Attacking with those rubbers on soft blades (like VKM) is difficult. But on an allround+ blade with some carbon in it it works nice and chopping is possible, but there will be very little spin. Bending the pips enough to inpart spin is difficult, the ball leaves the blade berfore I can make spin. At least most of the times. The rubber is a little too springy for that I think. But chopping low, fast and desd balls are ok, but you need a short stroke, like with SP. Or ball will fly long.

I might be able to tell you more later, I just removed it from my spare Carbonado blade to make room for the Hellcat. So now Aggressor is back on the cheap allround+ blade with carbon (HRT something). I have a spare Clipper to try some rubbers on as well....

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 02:20 
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i loved juic neo and had numerous sheets at one stage.
very good for getting the ball back and keeping it in play.
brilliant for chopping.
So your team will go up in the winter league?
Do you also play league tt in the summer.


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 04:02 
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peterpong wrote:
i loved juic neo and had numerous sheets at one stage.
very good for getting the ball back and keeping it in play.
brilliant for chopping.
So your team will go up in the winter league?
Do you also play league tt in the summer.


Our league with 4 player teams starts in September and is finished in March or April. If we end up at number one we are invited to play in a higher league next season. If we end up second we are invited to compete with a few other teams to play in tve higher league. And if we don’t win that we can still get a free ticket to the higher league if some other team withdraws (that is rather common). We are in the lead now and have a good chance to at least end up second.

My other local league (only for 30 years old) is not that serious even though matches count for ranking. That is two player-teams were a match can end up 3-2, 4-1 or 5-0. All matches are played even though one team is up 3-0. In our ”real” league we are 4 players, and a match can end up 8-0 or 7-7 and everything in between.

Usually, table tennis is not played between April and September by most experienced players in Sweden. But I keep playing all summer once a week as long as I am in my home town. My body gets angry with me if I don’t move and excercise enough... and I always have some rubber to test :)

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 21:46 
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Def-attack wrote:
I already have the Aggressor (bought it in April or so). It is a little too fast for controlled chops and I have mostly used it on stiff blades. MP and SP works best on such blades I think, at least for blocking. Attacking with those rubbers on soft blades (like VKM) is difficult. But on an allround+ blade with some carbon in it it works nice and chopping is possible, but there will be very little spin. Bending the pips enough to inpart spin is difficult, the ball leaves the blade berfore I can make spin. At least most of the times. The rubber is a little too springy for that I think. But chopping low, fast and desd balls are ok, but you need a short stroke, like with SP. Or ball will fly long.


Ok, thx for the info. :)

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2018, 05:04 
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Def-attack wrote:
I will probably stick to my setup one more month, to finish my season. I do it for my team mates. But I have already ordered a 1,5 mm Hellcat. That, and Aggressor 1,5 mm and GD 8228A 1,8 mm are the once I will evaluate. I also have a ox 563 that I will glue to some sponge and try out. I have a spare but broken Stiga Carbonado 190 blade to try them on. The Aggressor has been glued to it for a few weeks. But I will put Hellcat there when I get it. Next session (tuesday) I will see how it blocks and how it is for driving back topspins.

But I will only use it for like 30 minutes, then back to Diabolic. And it might be that my internal dissonance that makes me play poorly (I hesitate what strokes to use because I know my BH strokes are bad, so I make wrong decissions and have no fluid game) will be removed with a few more sessions, I don’t know. But I will still give the MP’s a real chance, but perhaps later...

I am going through some similar experiences as you DA. I'm trying to figure out if I should do a SP forehand or a SP/MP backhand.

I am leaning toward pips backhand due to my familiarity with having pips on that side, and the fact that there are several players in my club who play that way, and I could learn from them. However, my forehand sucks compared to my BH, so I was trying to keep that as a weapon, but I have found FH pips are super weird.

So, assuming I go Pips BH, the only decision I need to make is whether or not to use a grippy MP or a semi grippy SP on my BH. I was also intrigued by the hellcat video from the WRM guys. But in that video, he is using OX, not 1.8m. So I am wondering why you are opting to do a 1.5 and 1.8 sponge.

I am also intrigued by the new Gambler GXS and GXM rubbers, and they come in 1.0mm. I would like to try those in OX too, but they don't sell them.

My goal is to have some disturbance, the ability to chop block (still my best stroke) and the ability to hit, open/lift under, drive and fake loop. I still want to be able to do some topspin on that side. My backhand is far better and has better touch, so I can brush very well, and drive well too. My understanding is that the gamblers are grippy compared to other MPs and SPs.

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2018, 06:27 
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Iron Pips
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Blade: Stiga Carbonado 90
FH: Xiom Omega VII Euro max
BH: DMS Reflection 1,5 mm
Japsican wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
I will probably stick to my setup one more month, to finish my season. I do it for my team mates. But I have already ordered a 1,5 mm Hellcat. That, and Aggressor 1,5 mm and GD 8228A 1,8 mm are the once I will evaluate. I also have a ox 563 that I will glue to some sponge and try out. I have a spare but broken Stiga Carbonado 190 blade to try them on. The Aggressor has been glued to it for a few weeks. But I will put Hellcat there when I get it. Next session (tuesday) I will see how it blocks and how it is for driving back topspins.

But I will only use it for like 30 minutes, then back to Diabolic. And it might be that my internal dissonance that makes me play poorly (I hesitate what strokes to use because I know my BH strokes are bad, so I make wrong decissions and have no fluid game) will be removed with a few more sessions, I don’t know. But I will still give the MP’s a real chance, but perhaps later...

I am going through some similar experiences as you DA. I'm trying to figure out if I should do a SP forehand or a SP/MP backhand.

I am leaning toward pips backhand due to my familiarity with having pips on that side, and the fact that there are several players in my club who play that way, and I could learn from them. However, my forehand sucks compared to my BH, so I was trying to keep that as a weapon, but I have found FH pips are super weird.

So, assuming I go Pips BH, the only decision I need to make is whether or not to use a grippy MP or a semi grippy SP on my BH. I was also intrigued by the hellcat video from the WRM guys. But in that video, he is using OX, not 1.8m. So I am wondering why you are opting to do a 1.5 and 1.8 sponge.

I am also intrigued by the new Gambler GXS and GXM rubbers, and they come in 1.0mm. I would like to try those in OX too, but they don't sell them.

My goal is to have some disturbance, the ability to chop block (still my best stroke) and the ability to hit, open/lift under, drive and fake loop. I still want to be able to do some topspin on that side. My backhand is far better and has better touch, so I can brush very well, and drive well too. My understanding is that the gamblers are grippy compared to other MPs and SPs.


I won’t go ox, I never liked that. But I might try it and change my mind later. My FH is my main weapon.

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2018, 20:07 
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A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
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Blade: BTY Innershield
FH: BTY Tenergy 80FX (2.1mm)
BH: TSP Curl P1-R (1mm)
Def-attack wrote:
This is pretty much how I want to use my BH (but it looks like he uses it without sponge):
http://youtu.be/sBHF7NT639Q

the way he uses that.. you may as well use something like Dr Evil SPs?

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
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