OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Cobalt, thanks for your comments. From personal experience, being the better player doesn't always mean one has the better strokes or that one is even better at all parts of the game. Things like strength, good spin reads, defence or just subtle trickery can overcome a lot of stroke issues vs. specific opponents. I just don't argue with higher level players - often, their experience trumps my intelligence (and sometimes, their intelligence trumps mine too) and IMO, it's rude to argue with someone who is politely and genuinely trying to help you.

I've just been blessed that Sakaduski showed up at just the time I wanted to do this (and he showed up after I planned to do this) because part of my problem is that most of the people who are close to my strength at my club don't train or have training cliques. The kids have parents can pay for coaching, which is almost exclusively their training and the adults at my current level usually have seen better days and have preferred parthers.

When I tried quick recovery a while back, it initially felt odd and I tried to figure out why. I think (and this is just a hypothesis), that I like to recover through the path where I expect the stroke to go. At this time, a high level player (ok, it was Brett) told me to focus on finishing higher and all my recent videos with have this as a point of emphasis.




Thanks for your patience, carbonman. I can use a bigger backswing, and in fact, I did try one in my earlier videos with Matt that I posted on this thread. I can likely swing harder than this without giving up much and my equipment is relatively slow, especially the rubber. I'm just trying to make sure I get the form mostly right before going for more power and I am trying to see if I can maintain largely the same racket angle on balls that I would usually be scooping up. I usually play close to the table though so I would likely go more for precision and placement with wide angles before going for power. One of my goals for my forehand is to be able to avoid playing into the backhands of backhand dominated players like myself who are just higher level (female inverted hitters come to mind). Those matches tend to be my most crushing defeats but I play to the backhand side out of habit too often.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Slow recovery is so common. When people initially try recovering faster they find it really weird because they have never actually waited for the ball before and they simply dont know what to do with the time they have. As a result many players then start swinging too early because they think they have to be doing something.

Once you get used to waiting everything becomes so much easier. As well as getting more power and better timing you can often see your opponent commit themselves to a particular side and then take advantage of this.

Here are the loops vs. backspin sessions as promised. Haven't reviewed them for stroke quality yet so let me know if they are terrible and I will be sure to find some good sessions (I hope) as well, as there are 6 sessions.




A few matches immediately after the session where I got to apply what I practiced... the warmup was the one place where I tried quicker recovery for a short while...

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I watched most of the first clip. Your shot is actually very good... but (and I know Im starting to sound like a broken record)...you have to work on your recovery/preparation. If you did so you would easily be able to add 20+% to your game - it would just about fix everything.

After every shot or serve you do your bat stays upwards and forwards for an eternity. Often you are too rushed to loop the first ball well but, even if you do, by the second or third shot you are so late you either miss it or revert to a counterhit because your bat isnt back far enough to loop. Also, because you are still getting your bat back when the ball is bouncing, your weight often ends up going backwards rather than forwards, and/or you become unbalanced.

Try serving and getting your bat down and ready BEFORE your parner has hit the ball. Do the same after you loop - feel yourself waiting for the ball. Also, go back and re-watch that Zhang Jike clip and remind yourself how quickly he gets his bat back. It never stays upwards and forwards.

Sorry if the above sounds too critical - Im just trying to help. As I said, your shot is actually very good, especially given the condition of your knees.

No, carbonman, its not too critical at all. In fact, I appreciate your patience as you gave me your advice pretty early in the thread and I have been occupied with a few other things specific to the stroke itself. In fact, someone watching meade your point about slow recovery. I think in part it comes from still believing I am inconsistent rather than accepting that after I hit the ball, I have to recover whether I make it or not.

Moreover, the detailed explication of the effefts/consequences is helpful as well so keeping stroke intact asuch as I can, will focus on recovery to continue looping rather than looping and then hitting.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

What you did at 11:25 in your vid vs Jin is just the thing you want for a one step move and FH. If you could repeat that repeatedly...

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Honestly, this discussion is all so very helpful for everyone. I notice I tend to watch the ball more when I'm not confident about the shot just made.

As a rule, where in the process (Carbonman, anyone) should one begin their recovery? As soon as the ball is hit? After it bounces on the other side of the table?

I find that often if I try to recover as early as possible, I am not always in a position to use the forehand correclty because I haven't recieved enough data from the opponent in terms of positioning and stroke to accurately place my racket. What happens is what one of my coaches calls "Generic racket placement" and one ends up correcting placement during the stroke, which is generally a bad thing.

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The Zhang Jike video posted earlier by carbonman.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

As soon as you've completed your follow through which is definitely part of the stroke (some people say recovery is as well - one of the coaches at my club said that the Chinese don't believe you have a stroke until you have a recovery). Obviously, some follow throughs can be (too) large and can make recovery slower, but follow throughs are important (and I am learning how important they are compared to what I originally thought).

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

This was discussed on page 1 of this thread. I will mention 2 related points:

1 - you have to have your bat somewhere after a loop. Unless you intend to play an early counterhit the next ball it makes no sense to leave your bat so far upwards and forwards. Once your bat is back and ready to loop you then dont have to worry about it - all you have to do focus on moving into position.
2 - Once you get a bit of experience you have a fair idea where and what the next ball will be after you do a loop.

Interesting point Next Level about the inconsistancy and waiting to see if you have to hit another shot. Its a real weakness of mine that at my level too. Since I have started working on developing a loop about a year ago, its come along nicely so that when I choose to play a slow spinny loop, I'm hitting it fairly consistantly and often the result is that despite almost being in slow motion and my opponent knowing whats coming, there is so much spin that my opponent goes uh oh, and can't deal with it. I think that this creates that wait and see approach and gets me into bad habits as when playing someone who gets them back, often I'm not ready for it to come back. Often in the lower levels, when you see an aggressive shot played, the bat remains in place like a golf swing, as though the point is over as it usually is one way or the other. Either the shot is missed or the opponent is not going to get it back. Perhaps its not until we reach a certain level of opponent that a fast recovery is necessary but by then, unless coached from an early age, which no-one at my club is, then we have this bad habit ingrained.

Also note the full swing plane of Zhang Jike, he swings in a semi circle but then drops his bat straight down, makes sense, its the quickest route to the starting position. I think a lot of us have a tendancy to take the bat down along the same path of our swing ie a semi-circle.

Perhaps one way to try is do multiball. Get your partner to feed you balls but they are not allowed to feed the next ball until you have your bat ready in the pause position in Zhang Jike. Start slow then increase the speed the balls are fed until the habit is ingrained. Will also allow you to concentrate on the recovery without having a ball to distract you.

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The habit of waiting/freezing at the top of your follow-thru after you play a shot (coaches call it 'posing for a photograph') is extremely common. When I was a kid learning how to smash one of the first things my coach told me was that with smashing 'always expect the ball to come back'. Of course, with all shots you should expect the ball to come back - so, as soon as you play a shot, start recovering and preparing for the next one. It really is just a matter of getting into the habit. If you work on it diligently then eventually it will become second nature.

Thanks for the reply, and sorry if this was already addressed, I didn't read the beginning of the thread. Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but I think these basic concepts are foundationally key.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

No, you are not overthinking this. Yes, I am an advanced player, but the keys to fixing technique are often fundamental. I began to accept that there was something wrong with my forehand when I would have what I thought was a good match with it, but receive compliments on my backhand play which I took for granted. So I realized that even if I made good shots with it, people could see that it was still where they wanted to go in general.

I think I am at give or take 40% of what I set out to do. I think the framework for thinking about the stroke differently and more consistently is set. Now its mostly about practice and getting to take care of all the small details. This could bear significant fruit in about 3 months (usually, integration into the complete game always takes time).

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I'm trying to find a comfortable lower stance - I will need to work on both my forehand and backhand and some footwork out of it. I can't bend my knees per se, so I am thinking of using a wider stance. The second set of looping (begins around 8:50) points towards where I am headed. I think it will be easier to implement carbonman's advice in this stance as I can take back the paddle naturally while staying low and not losing balance. Will try it for a few days and see if I can make it work.



Had some fun celluloid ball looping sessions as well, but those don't count IMO...

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus