OOAK Table Tennis Forum

birchamboi: I was simply pointing out to Debater that there may be other reasons for 'cheating', apart from trying to win a point... I was not necessarily implying that these are acceptable options.

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As far as boosting goes, the unfair advantage argument does't hold water because we can BUY expensive ITTF-approved boosted rubbers at premium prices. I mean, why is it not an unfair advantage if we shell out lots of our hard-earned money for boosted rubbers, but it is if we save a few pennies and do it ourselves with baby oil?

Secondly, the rule is a complete joke to the pro players for whom it was mainly intended. Why should we as recreational players take seriously a flawed ITTF technical requirement that close to 100% of ITTF players routinely reject? Remember, the ITTF didn't add this so-called rule to help the players or for the integrity of the sport. That is NOT where their loyalty lies.

Is it cheating if you bring your best racket for your game style and your opponent does the same and then let the best player win over the table in a fair match? That's what they do in China at the recreational level. And table tennis is doing better there than anywhere else.

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My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

I must admit, I was highly amused when I first found out about Chinese expanded long pips sheets. ttnpp even sells them.

http://ttnpp.com/store/dawei/451-dawei- ... nge-6.html



Iskandar

I'm reading this thread and the one on MyTT. I've read such threads in the past. I'm always surprised so many people are eumoral when it comes to rules. Most people see breaking a rule as cheating. Still so many people get cheated on in real life and the table tennis world is a representation of that world (I've seen too many bad behaviours to state otherwise). Three explanations:

1) Table tennis players consist of only the most eumoral people on the planet;
2) People don't realize they break rules in real life;
3) People are hypocrits.

Well, I guess it's a combination of (2) and (3). I don't blame (2), never will, except when there is a immoral intent to it. However, (3): the moralists of today are the hypocrits of tomorrow. I'm not a christian, but they have a nice saying in the bible: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Not sure how expressing an opinion on a question on an open forum makes someone like me "immoral". If my approach to cheating isn't liked by some, so be it but I live by my moral code (which is far from perfect but it's the best I can do) and as long as I can do that and am true to myself I can live with being called a hypocrit.

If someone else's moral code is to want to cheat or they don't see it as cheating, then they are entitled to that opinion too. I'm not going to judge them but I will express an opinion on an open forum about cheating in table tennis and I won't be ashamed or shamed in to not doing it.

I can also understand totally the argument that pro's cheat - the ITTF should print a list on their home page of all the top players who cheat, they have a list of the owners of rackets which have been confiscated for failing to meet the "standards" at racket tournament testing stations. And I totally agree that it seems strange that company's can boost but consumers can't. But I also know of others who have deliberately altered their rubber to gain an advantage such as putting washing up liquid on the end of long pimples or coca cola on inverted rubbers to make them sticky. That's not right or fair.

Two line of arguments.

1. Do away with cheating the easy way and do away with rules.

I read one sports person saying allow drugs in athletics, let people drug themselves to the limit, they know the risks of the affect on health in later life. At least then it will be a level playing field and spectators won't need to guess at who has and who hasn't won "clean". Apply the same principle to table tennis and switch drugs for boosting or doing what ever chemical thing you want to do to your equipment. Fine if the governing body would go for that and that become the rules, I'd have no problems with that either.

or

2. Draw a line in the sand for yourself and don't cross it regardless of what others do.

A quote from the great Arnold Palmer when talking about Golf (a sport with far more rules and restrictions on equipment than table tennis, rules which aren't universally liked by those who play it).

"So golf to me is the physical act of playing; it’s the mental challenge of playing. But more important than any of the things I’ve talked about so far, it’s the moral code of the game. That moral code embodies the spirit of golf. It’s at the heart of our tradition. It hasn’t changed over the years.   And it’s what separates golf from all other sports. Golfers are on the honor system. We play by the rules, and we enforce them against ourselves. That’s the essence of our sport, and every serious golfer knows it.

Overall, the moral standards of society have declined in recent years, but the morality of golf hasn’t changed. Some people say that’s because golf attracts people of high integrity to begin with. And maybe it does. But I think it’s more a case of the game and the people who play it demanding integrity from all who participate. We won’t tolerate anything less. The game generates a respect, and those of us who play it take pride in enforcing the rules ourselves."

Hauser, Thomas; Palmer, Arnold (2012-03-13). Reflections on the Game (Kindle Locations 111-113). NBC Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Is he a hypocrit too for having high moral standards. It's an easy argument to hide behind saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". And the hypocrits of tomorrow? Could they be the people without morals today.

I'm all for getting rid of bad rules that don't make sense. If the rule was simply:

Rubbers with sponge can be no thicker than 4mm, OX rubbers can be no thicker than 2mm.
Glues and/or boosters containing VoCs are not permitted.

Boom. Problem solved. Everyone happy, including long pips players.


In my opinion, drawing a line in the sand just creates a double standard and bad feelings.

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Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

I knew someone would took the bait. Someone who tries to live by high moral standards isn't the hypocrit of tomorrow, because he knows he can on;y try. Someone who lives by his moral standards regardless of the situation is. And that's what I read a lot here and on MyTT. It's always something like this: "I understand the rule is absurd, but a rule is a rule, so you're cheating." TBH I don't know which category you belong to.

The two arguments you produce are black and white, two opposites. They don't take the situation into account. The arguments should look something like this;

1. Do away with cheating the easy way and do away with rules,
(a) but only when they can't be enforced,...
(b) except when it is dangerous for your health,...

2. Draw a line in the sand for yourself and don't cross it regardless of what others do,
(a) and do it especially when...
(b) except when...

Now let us test what category you belong to. Sharara and his goons make a rule stating "Debater can no longer participate in the sport of TT, can no longer participate in any competition around the world, may no longer hold a paddle into his hand,..." (I know: the rule badly written, but I'm no politician ) because you own him 20 bucks. Do you follow the rule or do you ignore it?

A a sidenote: the quote of the book you mention, shows to me the author is naive. Why would golf attract and hold only people with high integrity? Because they are rich? Please don't make me laugh. The most famous golfer, Tiger Woods, is having extramarital affairs. Does that show high integrity?

Eumoral?? That's a good one... Like "Euphemism".



ROFL. Like this list?

http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/pl ... _07_15.pdf

Ban 'em all!!! Ban 'em all for or life!!!!





Oops.. mea culpa.



And "golfers don't cheat":

http://golf.about.com/od/rulesofgolf/ss ... wlifes.htm
http://www.rockbottomgolf.com/bandit-go ... ozens.html

" The Bandit golf ball was designed to make golf more fun, drives longer, scores lower, and wager wins more frequent!"



Iskandar

Doesn't boosting require more effort than changing rubbers? You gotta take the rubber off, apply the booster, wait a few days, glue the sheet back on. Rinse, repeat when booster wears off in a few weeks...

Right now I'd love to be able to happily walk away from table tennis and Sharara banning me bans me from their competitions not playing with my friends in a garage somewhere.

I'd follow the rule and go and play with my friends or I'd follow the lead given in the article iskandar taib has provided a link to which says "Hey, here at About.com Golf we don't think recreational golfers have to be fanatical about playing by the rules - so long as you aren't claiming that you are playing by the rules." The key here is "you aren't claiming that you are playing by the rules". If you or anyone else wanted to boost or cheat in anyway or for whatever reason then announce it to everyone at the event. I'd have more respect for cheaters and would probably be happy to play them if they did that as I'd know what was coming. If you cheat, you cheat yourself too.

As for the author being naive, firstly you miss quote him. "He" didn't say it was because they were rich. And secondly he's one of the most respected players ever to play the game of golf. Respect can be either earned or received because of the position or post a person holds (in which case it's the position that has the respect not the person). The author earned that respect and not because he was considered to be naive.

You might not like my opinion Lorre, and I don't agree with yours. But at least I can respect that your opinion is different to mine and equally valid. On a scale of 1-10 in life does this really matter.

I think I'll consider myself banned and hobble away.

Good topic. I've been playing about 10 years and in my experience maybe 80% of players (here in the US) play fairly all the time. The other 20% cheat in some way or another at least some of the time. Intentionally serving illegally is the most common. I also hate this because a) I have a very hard time with it! and b) it breaks the spirit of competition and turns what should be a fun match into a dreary argument contest. The other type of cheating that I see most often is people attempting to alter the score in the middle of a game by insisting it's something other than it is. There is even one player at a club I go to frequently who will do this with games in a match, i.e., try to report the game score as 2-1 when it is 1-1 and so on. I've seen this person get into very heated shouting matches because of this.

Boosting I don't mind because I feel the basic rule is ridiculous and should be ignored. That being said, I don't boost because I can't be bothered with it and I know it won't help my game in any case.

I understand the temptation to cheat but when it comes to adults what I don't get is how they cannot understand how much it hurts their reputation in the community.

Unfortunately, players are being coached to be right on the line or over the line regarding hidden serves. Players boost or otherwise treat their rubbers. Why do coaches and players do this? I believe that enforceability of the current rules is the issue. Morality (or eumorality?) is also a factor here. Things like the ends justify the means or everyone else is doing it.

There are some who will deliberately slow the game down as a tactic when losing. When does gathering ones thoughts and taking a few deep breaths for one's own benefit become cheating in disrupting the "flow" of a game? (when the umpire notices it of course, but when there is no umpire?)

I am a believer in law and order in life. This is a moral position that I have taken. I will not go into it a la Samson Dubina unless requested.

As an accredited, albeit low level, umpire, I believe in enforcing the rules that I can to offer a level playing field.

As a player I am aware of the rules and adhere to them as much as I can. I do not nor have I ever: boosted, speed glued or otherwise processed my rubbers; done hidden or otherwise illegal serves; slowed the game down as a tactic; misstated the score for my own advantage; distracted the opponent via word, action or clothing; etc etc.

Does this make me a better player? A better person? All I know is that I sleep OK at night.

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Too bad. I'd ignore the rules and try to change them. I never would run away from something I'd love playing because person X or rule Y likes me to go.



I never said I quoted him when it comes to the richness cause. That's something I ask you or the community here. Why would golf be different from other sports? Why would it attract more high integrity persons?
Might it not be that, given the respect he or his position is given, players behave this way when he's around? Making his view in turn naive.



Respect is what matters, but it's never wrong to discuss things like this. In the past there were moral stances that prevailed (e.g. slavery). Why wouldn't that be in the future?
I've never given my position in this. I only asked yours... Now I admit I don't like moralist like I described them in my previous post for the simple reason they ignore reality when applying their principles. I've been the victim of their principles more than one time in the past. Not only that: they are hypocrits because one time or another they'll have to break their principle because of the situation.

My stance: I take one rule at the time and try to understand why the rule is implemented. If I find that a worthy cause, I'd follow that cause and in most cases the rule, except in situations in which the rule doesn't serve the cause. If not, the rule is just a written text, made to be broken at the first occasion possible.



Wait: Sharara is still putting money in his pockets. I think you can stay for a couple of years until he notices you're still playing.

Yes, and while this is sad and detrimental to the sport, it's probably no different than in any other sport where umpires are required to enforce rules. Doesn't make it ok of course but just pointing out that this is human nature, hence the sadness. I wish players on the top level adhered to the service rule which explicitly states that the free hand must be withdrawn immediately. Unlike boosting, that is actually an enforceable rule.

Unless you use this one.

http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/ ... der-100-ml



Iskandar