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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 18:50 
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wilkinru wrote:
Disclaimer: This is EmRatThich's best video, because it's just slow motion of pros and none of his nonsense.

I've watched it many times in awe.

https://youtu.be/c78hvb1zD0M?list=PL5K1 ... fRFDx&t=99

On this shot Ma Long does take his momentum forward, but I think its to contact the ball at the right time as he hits it inside or near inside the table. The very next point he contacts the ball with a circular motion and does not move forward much. His massive rotation pretty much makes him come forward a little. His legs get entirely off the ground and do things that I simply cannot reproduce.

It's all there on the second shot (at 1:48). On first wind up he has all of his weight on his right leg and the left foot is actually only somewhat touching the floor. The arm coming back inside, his back pointed to the sky, his arm back as much as possible and straight, the little extra whip just before he explodes into the ball and his arm coming up above his head to create enough lift. Ma Long is so good he takes the triangle 2 steps further and not only his arm, but both of his legs are triangles at the end of the swing.

He does take the bat much further across is body than most of us do but he knows it's a kill shot that wont come back with quality and he fully commits to it.

We could probably spend the next few years discussing everything in the video.


Sometimes you have to step into the ball to get into position...sometimes you have to step away from it. Ma Long did both on consecutive shots, as you pointed out. It's obviously not the point then. Rotation of the torso is what propels the arm. The stepping in (or out) is about getting into position. People take the stepping out of context. They see someone step in an believe that's where the power is coming from and therefore believe it's part of the technique. Often when someone is stepping in, it's against an easier ball and they really kill it through rotation. To believe that stepping forward actually propels your arm isn't quite right. Try it for yourself. Put your arms out and step forward and see what happens to your arms. Now twist your torso with your arms out and watch what happens.

In the video above, Federer steps in or out with his left leg, depending on the minor adjustments he has to make. He's almost certainly not even thinking about it and he's just hitting the ball. Imagine if someone told him he needs to transfer his weight. I'm sure he's heard coaches say things like that, but he'd know it's not really what is going on. Twisting and transferring your weight aren't the same thing. You can transfer your weight without twisting and you can twist without transferring your weight.

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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 05:44 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Richfs wrote:

Btw, great video Brett! Did you ever play against Waldner? Did you get any inspiration from him when you were developing your serves? Did you have any aha moments when you were practicing them?


I played against Sweden when Waldner was in the team. He sat out for the match and he watched me get crushed by Peter Karlsson. I also trained at his club for a while. We were playing 'winner up, loser down' matches one day. I was moving up on a winning streak and he was losing, so we were set to play on a table in the middle. He just looked at me and quit for the day, which made me laugh. We sat down and talked instead and he asked me about my table tennis. I promptly told him that I was just another bad player. Henzell played in a league team with him for a season, which was amazing for him.

Watching Waldner play live was one of my biggest motivations for playing international table tennis, as strange as that may sound. Waldner was the table tennis God in the 90s. I watched Sweden beat China live in both 93 and 2000. I go to tournaments now and watch FZD and ML train and I can spend hours lurking around the court. The quality of their play is unmatched and they make everyone else in the training hall look bad. It's a joke that either of them ever lose a match. But watching Waldner play live was more a magical experience even though ML and FZD play at a higher level. Waldner was the most efficient and creative player ever. He made people fall in love with the sport.


Amazing, what a shame you didn't get to play at least one set against him. If you could beat a young Mizutani you must've been pretty decent even for Waldners standards, surely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJqYv_SFxzE I have watched this documentary several times, the atmosphere in the hall back then must have been incredible. If you haven't seen this yet I really recommend you watch it. The subtitles aren't completely accurate but they're good enough.

When I was at the WTTTC I really wanted to get into the training hall, I was more excited to see any of the top players train close up than seeing the actual matches. Unfortunately there was no way for me to get in. Just watching MLs and FZDs training on youtube is hypnotizing.

Thanks for the comment and video on weight transfer. So it's not something we should think of, emphasis should be on rotation and with that comes weight transfer.


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 06:36 
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Played a little pickleball today for the first time ever. The rules about that game require you to hit the ball below your belly button. Naturally I just did my forehand loop off of backspin and just spun the ball past people on serve.

All of these racket sports could probably benefit from the master's teachings.

(it isn't time for a one punch man reference just yet...)


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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 10:38 
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ETTS49 is available on ttEDEGE.com

If you think that the content is too simple, video your own counterhit and see if you are really doing it.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 11:33 
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wilkinru wrote:
Played a little pickleball today for the first time ever. The rules about that game require you to hit the ball below your belly button. Naturally I just did my forehand loop off of backspin and just spun the ball past people on serve.

All of these racket sports could probably benefit from the master's teachings.

(it isn't time for a one punch man reference just yet...)


Sounds like short people would be at a disadvantage.. :lol:

Looked up the rules. Looks like only the server can score points, and if the receiving side "scores" they then get to serve rather than score a point. This is what badminton rules USED to be like. When I was growing up I thought ALL racket sports used the same system (since badminton was on TV all the time) and watching tennis or table tennis was very confusing.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 14:49 
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Richfs wrote:

Thanks for the comment and video on weight transfer. So it's not something we should think of, emphasis should be on rotation and with that comes weight transfer.


Sometimes you may incidentally transfer your weight to your left leg and sometimes you may just pivot around on your right foot. Many times your left leg just makes sure you don't fall over.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 14:51 
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wilkinru wrote:
Played a little pickleball today for the first time ever. The rules about that game require you to hit the ball below your belly button. Naturally I just did my forehand loop off of backspin and just spun the ball past people on serve.

All of these racket sports could probably benefit from the master's teachings.

(it isn't time for a one punch man reference just yet...)


I had to google pickleball. It looks like fun. Maybe you can become a coach?

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 00:08 
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This reminds me of a game we used to play at school in Adelaide, if the TT tables were unavailable. We didn't use a net, but the bats (which we called paddles, and were mostly from Beach games) were similar in shape to the pickleball ones. IIRC, we used tennis balls. The courts were painted on the asphalt of the school courtyard, but i never saw it played anywhere else.

Not a cheap game. https://pickle-ball.co.uk/

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 02:17 
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Pickleball is growing in popularity all over the states, despite its initial association with senior citizens. The big tt club in North Carolina, Triangle Table Tennis has started pickleball leagues. Although table tennis seems to be growing fast too. In my podunk town the pitiful twice a week club has been converted to a six-days-a-week for profit business in the local shopping mall, and it's thriving. (Note to Brett, Tyson owns it.) I thought that was a one-off success because there is little or nothing else to do here. Then I went to visit my Mom in scenic Huntsville, Alabama. They have a much older and more established club drawing about 50 players. I've played there a few times a year since I started. The last time I went all the regulars in the top group were complaining that they may stop playing because so many new players are coming. It's too crowded and they can't get through a round-robin (that's their format). Which is a weird problem to have. I suggested maybe someone who is retired, or with kids to use as free labor, could open a full-time club and make some money. But nobody thought one could survive. It almost seems like US TT players are so conditioned to it being a tiny niche thing that they can't see this tipping point that seems to be arriving. Which again is weird because there is a whole league of adults playing kickball in the fields outside the rec center the Huntsville club uses. The demand for sports that anyone can play is extremely high. Which brings us back to pickleball. I think the reason it is growing so fast is that most of the players are new, so they suck, and everyone accepts that players who suck are still pickleball players. As soon as table tennis moves from a non-profit club environment to a business, everybody (and their $5 - $10) is welcome. Most of those players will always only play ping-pong, but who cares? Most tennis players (lots in Florida) are horrible. I'm sure golfers are too, but there are tennis courts and golf courses everywhere. All that is required for table tennis to grow like pickleball is for the social clubs to become small businesses, and they will erase the difference between pingpong and TT, because that's where the money is.


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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 11:25 
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BRS wrote:
Pickleball is growing in popularity all over the states, despite its initial association with senior citizens. The big tt club in North Carolina, Triangle Table Tennis has started pickleball leagues. Although table tennis seems to be growing fast too. In my podunk town the pitiful twice a week club has been converted to a six-days-a-week for profit business in the local shopping mall, and it's thriving. (Note to Brett, Tyson owns it.) I thought that was a one-off success because there is little or nothing else to do here. Then I went to visit my Mom in scenic Huntsville, Alabama. They have a much older and more established club drawing about 50 players. I've played there a few times a year since I started. The last time I went all the regulars in the top group were complaining that they may stop playing because so many new players are coming. It's too crowded and they can't get through a round-robin (that's their format). Which is a weird problem to have. I suggested maybe someone who is retired, or with kids to use as free labor, could open a full-time club and make some money. But nobody thought one could survive. It almost seems like US TT players are so conditioned to it being a tiny niche thing that they can't see this tipping point that seems to be arriving. Which again is weird because there is a whole league of adults playing kickball in the fields outside the rec center the Huntsville club uses. The demand for sports that anyone can play is extremely high. Which brings us back to pickleball. I think the reason it is growing so fast is that most of the players are new, so they suck, and everyone accepts that players who suck are still pickleball players. As soon as table tennis moves from a non-profit club environment to a business, everybody (and their $5 - $10) is welcome. Most of those players will always only play ping-pong, but who cares? Most tennis players (lots in Florida) are horrible. I'm sure golfers are too, but there are tennis courts and golf courses everywhere. All that is required for table tennis to grow like pickleball is for the social clubs to become small businesses, and they will erase the difference between pingpong and TT, because that's where the money is.


Very interesting. Seems like Tyson jumped on a nice little trend there! I think it's time for me to start a new company call "PickleSkills"?

I think we saw it being played by a bunch of elderly citizens when I was lobbing and chopping you off in Orlando, right?

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Last edited by Brett Clarke on 15 Oct 2018, 13:42, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 11:55 
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Yes, that was pickleball in Orlando. I'm not sure what the skills are, but rhere must be some. You could get in on the ground floor.


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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 12:51 
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[Whine mode ON] Pickleball sounds like a really nice sport to convert to once a particularly long downswing in table tennis hits really hard. [Whine mode OFF]

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 13:33 
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fastmover wrote:
[Whine mode ON] Pickleball sounds like a really nice sport to convert to once a particularly long downswing in table tennis hits really hard. [Whine mode OFF]


But I can't think of anything sadder than a pickleball downswing.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 14:07 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
fastmover wrote:
[Whine mode ON] Pickleball sounds like a really nice sport to convert to once a particularly long downswing in table tennis hits really hard. [Whine mode OFF]


But I can't think of anything sadder than a pickleball downswing.


True, but maybe I have a hidden talent for pickleball that I am missing table tennis? BTW, what do you think about talent? Like is there such thing like talent for the "feeling of the ball"?

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2018, 01:36 
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I'm doing pickleball for the most simple reason: The gym I go to at lunch is playing it on Thursdays. The game has more movement than table tennis and allows me to experience a different type of equipment without messing up my TT game. If anything the game lets my leg muscles get some balance on usage.

I bought my own pickleball paddle ( https://www.midwestsports.com/head-radi ... /p/226017/ I didn't pay nearly that much). This paddle is said to have the most spin you can get - the game has friction/roughness on the surface of the paddle rules.

So I turned on my TT ball machine and returned a few top spin and backspin balls. Turns out there is no grip at least to a ping pong ball. Basically played like long pips, no grip.


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