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 Post subject: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2010, 13:32 
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Hi guys,
I'm new to this forum and I tried to but can't find anything with regards to strategy and tactics for playing the modern defensive game, specifically with lp on one side of the blade. Any suggestions?


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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2010, 16:25 
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There is plenty of related discussion in the backlog

read this forum and the coaching forum

also look at videos in the video forum here and just google video search for the top modern defenders and SEE the tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 02:28 
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wobble_wobble wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm new to this forum and I tried to but can't find anything with regards to strategy and tactics for playing the modern defensive game, specifically with lp on one side of the blade. Any suggestions?


Have any question in your mind? Just post it. PPL will try to answer it if the can. We all can learn from it.
It's hard to talk about strategy in general. Also different levels require different strtegies. I believe Kee's article of Chen Weixing is one of the best to read so far.

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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 12:08 
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My advice is don't try to be a "modern defender", that's a mindset that will drag you down and trap you. Play the game with serves, returns, loops, hits, pushes, loops, blocks, lobs, etc. Decide how you want to win points, develop a game plan that suits your character and just play.

If you decide "i'm a modern defender" then you get into silly arguments about what a modern defender is. I think some people just like to call themselves modern defenders because it makes them feel good. I could argue that everyone is a modern defender, even a hardbat flat hitter; it's just a useless term.

If you like to chop backhands, then learn to chop backhands. If you like to loop forehands, then learn to loop forehands. Learn the footwork, transitions, tactics, touch, and have fun.

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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 25 Feb 2010, 15:30 
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bcbcbc
Thanks for the tip on previous posts and the archives with regards to defense play. Guys, I'm not sure how I managed to miss those beauties. It is a criminal offense not to highlight these gems with flashing neon lights and blinking arrows pointing to it with dancing girls and banners saying "Come this way. We will help to make you into a modern defense player in no time. please come in...". :lol:

BH, Thanks for the tip. I have been searching for Kee's analysis of Chen's game but have not found it yet. Along the way, I did manage to stumble my way to the pips site about classic and modern defense - basic techniques and tactics by Kees here,

http://www.pipfacts.info/content/view/66/87

Kees, I take my hat off to you. If words are allowed in tt, you will be world champion, period.

Now speedplay, your post in the Pip Tales section in the above site did not escape my attention. I am beginning to see a side of you I have not seen before and I have concluded that you are dangerous. Passing off the JUIC Neoanti as an inverted rubber to your opponent while maintaining a straight face. If I tried that, I wouldn't be able to look my opponent in the eye. Then I would break into a nervous grin. Before long, I would turn into blob of quivering jelly, and blurt out a confession and beg for forgiveness. But we need people like you to deal with those sadistic players who keep telling us it is the long pimples that win points. Their cruel words cut like a knife to the very core of our being. The wounds are deep and painful. They refuse to acknowledge the high level of skill and the Joo and Chen like techniques we display. :@

Thanks kagin for your encouragement. I intend to enjoy tt for as long as God gives me strength and physical ability. I have an idea about playing defensive although my understanding is not yet complete. People say the best defensive is a good offence. Perhaps, in a nutshell, that is what "modern defensive" is all about, you think? I think my journey of exploration will most certainly have its ups and downs, and some bumpy patches along the way. I think it will be an interesting journey.


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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2010, 06:11 
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Quote:
"BH, Thanks for the tip. I have been searching for Kee's analysis of Chen's game but have not found it yet"


Seriously, I would have to say "TRY HARDER". I believe what you REALLY want is in that article. Once you find it, it will be the best article to read for DEF players and you can read it again and again.

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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2010, 10:32 
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Thanks BH. Seriously, each time I search for something, I get 30+ page to wade through. I always get side-tracked because some of the topics appear interesting. I fought it as long as I could but I usually end up reading some of them. Those pages contain links and I just had to click them.

Do you happen to have the link to that page by any chance? Rest assured that I intend to go through as much as I can to find relevant posts on this topic but it will take time. One day, I would like to gather all this useful info into ONE easy accessible page on this site, that is if the admin and moderators don't kick me out first.

I'm not sure where to start and I am equally unsure if we can finish this to some reasonable or suitable standard to be useful. But I am keen to try and with all our input, we may even surprise ourselves. Well, I thought that like any machine or weapon, one needs to know what it can do and cannot do. So in this respect, how about a list like the following below. I am in favour of the SWOT analysis even though it sounds too much like a business case and that's no fun. However, for lp, it helps has a place for threats and opportunities which is not available in the other 2 methods. What do you think? Any other suggestions? The plan is once we decide on how best to describe the characteristics of lp, we will start filling it up. Beyond that, I don't really have a plan but just some ideas. Your input is as good as mine so we can work on this. What do you say guys/gals?

Do's and Don'ts
Advantages and Disadvantages (Pros and Cons)
Strength, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats (SWOT)


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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2010, 13:58 
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PM kees!!

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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2010, 15:48 
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Thanks BH. I think I will search for and go through all of Kee's posts. Let me do that first. I'm sure he is a busy man. Nothing an investment of time won't solve.

As someone who is searching, I was hoping this info was available in a page with links to useful pages related to this subject. I have read some of Kees posts and I do agree Kees is without equal.


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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010, 13:18 
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Kagin,

I think what you said is very true. You will only be good if you play your style and enjoy what you are. It does not matter how good other people do, you can only improve your game if that's your own style.

For myself, that is exactly what's my experience. Back in 2004, I used normal rubbers and my style was serve and attack. But after many tournaments, I decided to hang up my higher rating dream because no matter how hard I try, I never get pass 2000. The highest rating I ever got was 1960 and sometimes, it fell to low 1800. It was so bad that even an 1800 or 1900 player can beat me easily sometimes. I remember, the last game in a tournament, I played with a low 2000 rating player, he did "ghost serves" on me in the last few points to close the game and I still didn't know what to do with it. It was not a pleasant experience

In 2007, I saw on TV, a Korean player who could play chopping with long pips on BH and attack on the forehand. I fell in love with that style and decided to change from a normal pips to long pips. I copied his style by chopping and attacking. After 6 months, I noticed almost everyone in the club can beat me so easily. I thought it was the pips, so I changed to many different types, Things did not get better. Even worse, some people in the club started calling my long pips as "evil", "junk"..etc

One day, someone introduced me to this forum and after reading many pips articles here, I decided to be myself again by playing with my own style. I used my long pips as a close to table blocking and looping with my forehand with strong serves just like what I did for many years with normal rubber. The result was amazing. I was able to beat a few high ranking players even some of them in the 2200 ranking. I enjoyed it so much and decided to join the tournament again. Guess what, I played with that low 2000 player who did the "ghost serve" on me 6 years ago. This time I beat him and so are many other players in my group and won the tournament. This time, no "Ghost serves" :-)

My ranking is over 2000 now for the first time. I don't know how long I can sustain it but one thing I know for sure is: This is my style and I really enjoy playing that

byluu


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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2010, 11:33 
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Thanks :*: speedplay. :*: I did read that article but I wasn't sure if that was the one. Anyway, it is good to get that sorted.

kagin and byluu, I think is is highly useful to take advantage of using a term that we can use as a communication means, whatever the term generally accepted in common use happens to be. The way I see it, traditional defensive tt is mainly defending with the occassional attack against weak returns or pop-ups.

Modern defence is quite different. It seeks to open attacks by looping against pushes. Once an attack is initiated, it often results in loops and counter-loops until a point is won or lost. In addition, a modern defensive player will not hesitate to go into a counter-looping contest against seasoned attacking opponents. We need to put a name to this new way of playing defensive tt.

Modern defense is also a mindset. By this I mean a player can go into a game with a view to attack at every opportunity. Now this player might go up against an opponent who knows how to stop him/her from attacking. So he/she goes about the business of defending right to the very end. An outside observer might take the view that he is wanting to chop his opponent off the table but this is far from the truth.

It is also a strategy or a big picture of the game plan. It is a high level plan of how you will play the game taking into consideration the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent and yourself and your equipment etc, to gain the upper hand. To try to succeed, you may also devise a series of tactics designed to achieve your stragetic objective.

Using only 2 words to describe the above is highly useful IMO. :?: Now let’s talk about the modern attacker. Umm, perhaps we better not go there. It is the most ridiculous thing I have never heard of. :headbang:


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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 01:02 
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I agree with the statement about not trying to be a modern defender. I started out as a defender, and then became what some call a modern defender. Now I am an attacker, yet, I defend when I have to. I think that is the best approach to the game. Each ball must be played on merit. I have seen some players who like to say they are modern defenders chopping balls that were begging to be killed. That is the kind of approach we need to consciously avoid.

It was only after I stopped trying to be a defender or a modern defender that my game really started to develop and my win/loss ratio changed to my favour, by leaps and bounds. Now I play each ball on merit and I wait for the best ball to be attacked. If I have a safe enough lead I will even go for some risky winners.

I have a basic rule that I always stick to, if a ball can be attacked, I WILL attack it. However, never forget the value of the drop-shot when your opponent is standing 15 feet away from the table waiting for your attack. :devil:

Welcome to the forum wobble_wobble. :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: strategy and tactics
PostPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 09:18 
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Now we're talking Ranger-man. :*: strategy and tactics :*: using lp in the style of "modern defensive" play is the title of this post but tactics can be used no matter what style is used (e.g. drops shots, third ball attack etc). I wanted to explore and learn the "modern defensive" side because this is of much interest to me. I have limited experience and I wanted to know what others know or have done that was particularly useful. I don't mind if I've heard this before and I'm always open to new ideas.

What you have described is correct and I would classify that as a tactic. I remember in one of my interclub games with a inverted/sp player (much higher percentage than me) whom I have lost to on two previous occasions. He is very good defending/chopping further back and absolutely put it away beyond doubt at near table range especially with his sp most of the time. I lost, but worse than that, my mind was a blank as to how to counter his game. A little despair set in.

When we met again, I thought about it a little and knew I had to do something, anything, in the hope I can do better than previously. He was a bit on the chubby side but you wouldn't know it from looking that he could move as fast as he did at first glance. He would pounce in a flash to kill short balls and seldom misses.

However, I thought that his mass might make him tire if I could move him in and out. So my strategy then was to attack his stamina. I thought slow spiny loops was of limited use because he had sp and knew how to use it. I thought fast loops would be better as that means he will have less time and might play back from the table a little more. To open the attack, I would play fast loops/drives and string a few of those in a row. After a few of those, he did go further back to defend. When I thought it safe, I would mix slow loops and play short balls which he would rush in to attack. He did get points when he did that but on the whole, he lost more points than he won. His unforced error rate climbed up as the match progressed. To my relief, he was tired out and in the last game, he basically threw it. It is fair to say that strategy and tactics won this one for me. I won because I had an idea.

I would be more than happy to try out any ideas you guys have or find useful or successful. What situations you encountered and what you were thinking. How you did when you tried it. Did you think of giving up mid way through? I also don't mind hearing how you tried something and didn't work as that in itself has a lesson to be learned. Now share these ideas NOW and don't force me to pry these ideas off you chest! :rofl:


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