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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2015, 23:46 
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Hi guys, I would be happy to read some opinions.
I'm thinking about a close to the table set-up. I'm considering Cloud&Fog3 and Talon OX pips (Red).
Both have a good reputation from what I read.
Talon seems to have the better "braking effect" like the user Pushblocker said in another thread.
That's sounds interesting to me.
Yes, the idea is a classical push&punch and block game near the table with OX just for fun when I want to do.
My question are:
Is the talon definitively better for this purpose?
Which of the two is better in producing sinking balls, kunkle effects or dancing trajectories?
(The most important and funny part - Whatever you call deception).
Which of the two is the less sensitive to spin?

Thank you!
Marco

P.s.: or, maybe, should I consider the grass d'tecs?


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 02:02 
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Fairly easy to answer this.Talon.Pushblocker is the best example of a Talon user for a close to the table game.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 02:23 
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Blade: TSP Balsa 3.5 DEF+
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For the below criteria:
Less disruptive<------->more disruptive
Easier to use<------->Harder to control

CF3<----------->Talon, then Dtecs


CF3 chops the best, but blocks the worst. Not as dangerous.
Talon is an easier version of Dtecs with arguably the same amount of disruption (Speaking about the newer version of Dtecs).

I loved Talon for helping me develop my at-the-table game with LPs. It's a good rubber for blocking and chop blocking. I didn't like it for chopping...the feeling wasn't right to me. But it hits well, and blocks well. About the braking effect: Yes it's great, but only with a 100% passive block. In other words, you can have no forward motion at all! If you move forward even a little, it's got the opposite effect of braking and the blocks are much faster. So, since my style involves chopping and stepping away from the table, when I came troward the table to execute a block, if I wasn't 100% still and not moving the bat forward, the block would be uncontrollable vs. anything over medium pace or higher. I'm comparing this to DG, 755, Pogo, even p-1R, etc...they are much more absorbing with any forward motion.

On active strokes the rubber is faster than a lot of LPs...which may be good or bad.

Aren't you a chopper? If so, i would go with CF3 or Dtecs for OX chopping AND blocking even though they are on opposite sides of my above scale. They're more appropriate. If you watch PBs style, that's how you have to use Talon to get the most out of it IMO, and he's amazing at it.

That all being said, Talon was my favorite of the 3 even tho it doesn't suit my game.

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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 03:22 
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Geodor wrote:
Fairly easy to answer this.Talon.Pushblocker is the best example of a Talon user for a close to the table game.

Yes, true. I watched a couple of his matches and he's really good at PB.

Japsican wrote:
...Aren't you a chopper? ...

Thank you for the detailed answer :up:
Sure, I am. Classical defense is my main style and I have the proper set-up(s) for chopping.
The idea of pushblocking is just for pleasure. But I guess, versus certain opponents, pushblocking is more effective than chopping. So having an "oriented" PB set-up might be a good idea, to use depending on the case (knowing what is the opponent who suffers that style, to saving strategically energy for the next match in a tournament etc).

You guys teaches me that the new d'tecs has shorter pips than the old one. So it is faster (?) and less effective (?). But I did not clearly understand if it is - the new grass d'tecs - still the most deceptive.
Btw I know talon is a great lp for sure. I suspect, from what you - Japsican - said, it will be springier than the other pips I have.
I would place it on a def blade, so I will gain control from the wood (Not balsa wood, I suspect that balsa + talon will be too fast and springy on active strokes)...


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 04:05 
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CelestialBoy wrote:
Btw I know talon is a great lp for sure. I suspect, from what you - Japsican - said, it will be springier than the other pips I have.
I would place it on a def blade, so I will gain control from the wood (Not balsa wood, I suspect that balsa + talon will be too fast and springy on active strokes)...

I loved it, and you are correct, it is springy on a balsa blade. I used it on a hallmark aurora and still have that setup. It's very dangerous tho..if you can corral it.

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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 04:31 
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I have C&F III and I don't find it too disruptive.. My opponents have a lot less trouble with it than when I play Talon. However, C&F III has better control.. It's a fairly hard rubber mix while Talon is softer.

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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 04:48 
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CelestialBoy wrote:
Which of the two is better in producing sinking balls, kunkle effects or dancing trajectories?
(The most important and funny part - Whatever you call deception).


Just a heads up that this so called deception does not exist except with opponents unfamiliar with LPs, which is admittedly common. Talon and d.tecs are high reversal, aka slippery, nothing more, but that means you can return a lot more spin than lesser topspinners expect. And because of the way the pips bend, they're decent speed on slower face-on impacts but slow down on more full/angled hits, which makes returning fast incoming shots easier. The only "deception" of LP is it's somewhat easier to get different returns from subtle stroke differences, and you can do different strokes (like side-swipe) but end up with the same return. It's hard for people who don't play against it regularly to recognize these by instinct.

IMO d.tecs is a bit fast to start off (though that's what I started with), it's very easy to touch balls off the table, especially low/no-spin ones. Smarter opponents will feed you these shots. So maybe Talon is better choice. You can also try a slower more conventional LP like 388d-1 or globe 979 first to get a hang of the basic shots before going to max reversal.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 05:48 
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Pushblocker wrote:
I have C&F III and I don't find it too disruptive.. My opponents have a lot less trouble with it than when I play Talon. However, C&F III has better control.. It's a fairly hard rubber mix while Talon is softer.

Yeah, thank you. I think I'll take the Talon, no matter the less control. I will get control through the slow blade and, mostly, through pratice.
irenic wrote:
... You can also try a slower more conventional LP like 388d-1 or globe 979 first to get a hang of the basic shots before going to max reversal.

Thank you for the explanation, it sounds very logical to me.
I tried 388d (not d-1) and the globe 979 (this on a friend paddle). Well, the 979, I remember the good reversal, but... I didn't like it. Can't explain why.
The 388d was easy to use but not really dangerous for my opponents. Until... ehm... I did some experiments with it... :angel: and now the pimples of my 388d are 2mmx2mm LOL
Now it is nasty, but it isn't legal at all. So I will not use it in competition.
Well... as a honest darksider (?) I got here confirms that Talon is a reasonable answer.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 15:07 
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Blade: Joola CWX
FH: S&T Secret Flow 2.1
BH: Troublemaker ox
I have played few times with C&F ox lately, and feels different from other popular ox pips like Dtecs, Pogo, DG...

C&F has quite thick base, so playing with it is somewhat like playing with sponge.

C&F has good control and it is very predictable, so not that many unexplained floaters or netted balls. It is bit sensitive to spin, but in predictable manner. Attacking was very good.

On the dowside, C&F had no funkiness at all. There were not much reversal or spin in either pushing, blocking or chopping. So very little disturbance compared to most popular ox pips.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2015, 20:15 
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Roy wrote:
... On the dowside, C&F had no funkiness at all...

Very useful infos, thanks.


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 11:36 
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Buy both....they are both reasonably priced. If you don't like the Talon you'll always be wondering about the CF.

For me....LP is somewhat blade dependent. Also, I think especially with OX....everyone brings their own idiosyncrasies with regard to playing style....maybe I grip harder when I block. Maybe I take the ball off the bounce a fraction sooner when blocking. There could be damn near an infinite number of variables that make my experience with a rubber completely different from yours.

After using DTEC (OX) for the past 3 years I tried Talon...probably 7 months ago or so....and after trying it on a few different blades I hated! it. So I switched to DG....and I thought that was fine...a nice rubber... but I certainly wasn't getting the mythical LP "effects" that players rave about when talking about DG.

So coincidentally I switched to a different blade...tried the DG....didn't "work"...so I thought....what the hell....let's try the Talon on my new blade. BINGO! :party: The Talon plays great on that blade....!

Talon was dead to me 7 months ago....but now I use it as my primary rubber....why?


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 16:37 
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I think the reason that happens is a lot of LP player use a lot of passive strokes, where their own shot mostly depends on how the racket coincidentally reacts to the incoming ball. So depending on who their play, certain rackets just happen to work better or worse. For example, high reversal "works better" against spin players and not at all against flat shots, or fast equipment "works better" against control or lower level but too error-prone against power players.


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PostPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 07:27 
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I agree with Pushblocker on comparison of C&FIII and Talon. I have used Talon OX without glue sheet for all my tournaments for the past two years on an extremely fast balsa blade (TSP 8.5). I attack with Talon when possible and stay on the table for the most part. The one thing I wish Talon did well is the so-called roll-over shot with the BH. Talon is disruptive at any speed but be prepared to spend lots of time learning to control the rubber. I have ordered the National Team version and look forward to comparing it with the regular Talon. Talon does have some variations in production of the sheets.

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Blade: TSP 8.5 Balsa: FH Andro Blowfish+ 2.0 (Black);BH Giant Dragon National Team Talon OX(Red)
Blade: TSP 8.5 Balsa: FH TSP Spectol Blue 2.0-2.1 (Black); BH Strahlkraft OX (Red)
Blade: TSP 8.5 Balsa: FH Joola Express Ultra Max (Black): BH Dornenglanz II OX (Red)

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PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 01:28 
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Red Talon ox in now on my Nittaku Endless. :rock:

I removed the gluesheet completely and glued the rubber with donic glue.
Perfect result. I'm very (very very) happy, I did a very good job.
Can't wait to try it at the club.


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