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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 06:00 
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Congrats Charmander. Good on you. :up:


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 07:17 
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dwruck wrote:
Congratulations on your results, they generally sound positive. You are right, against the "best of the best", long pips blocking and chop blocking is going to get absolutely destroyed. There are still some long pips choppers that can play at the highest levels, but you are right, because of the new balls it is more difficult than before.
I think most of us here are "average" players, which is why we talk about the close to the table pips style. We are not trying to compete at the elite levels of the sport (for the most part), but just looking to get to that next level and have fun. I used to be in the USATT 1900 and above range consistently for a couple of years, but then it started slipping a bit. I probably could have stayed in the 1700-1800 range without messing around with my equipment, But I decided to try some other things before I ended up on the Trouble Maker OX. At my age (almost 49), skill level and only able to play 1-2 times per week. using this style and talking about it is very useful.
Charmaine, maybe you over estimated the general level of players here. Yes, there are a number of players that are above 2000 USATT or equivalent. Even at that level, if you are really good, you can be competitive with long pips.
Anyway, just my perspective on why Trouble Maker and other traditional long pips are exciting to talk about here. There are a lot of players with great experience using long pips and I still continue to learn so much.
I tried ABS2 and didn't like it one bit. Maybe I'll have to eventually try the DMS antis. But for now I'll probably stick with the TM, try to get back to my previous level and hope to get over 2000 someday.


As one of those players here who plays a close-to-the-table blocking style with long pips and is (a bit) over 2000, despite not treating my pips in any way, I'll agree with these comments. Yes, you're probably not going to get to a U.S.-2500 level by blocking with long pips (nor are most of us ever going to get that level with double inverted either), but you can get to a level of play where you're competing against and beating some pretty good players. I'd point out that Manika Batra plays close to the table with presumably legal OX pips on an international level, and so does Zhang Guochi (sometimes spelled Guozhi). The thing about these players is that they don't merely block with their pips. They play very aggressively with them. I try to do that as well. The key to my game is to keep opponents constantly off balance.

I was playing this 1800 kid recently, where I made the mistake of being too predictable, something I sometimes have the luxury of doing against players who either don't get pips or don't have shots consistent enough to put pressure on me or avoid mistakes. My whole game against this kid was block against loop, aggressive push against push. At first, he had no idea what to do, and I won the first set 11-1. I won the second set 11-6. Then, by the third set, he'd caught on, and I lost it 14-12. I started playing the fourth set the same way I finished the third, and he jumped out to a 7-2 lead. That's when I caught myself and realized I needed to do something different. I started twiddling, interspersing inverted pushes with my pips pushes, throwing in inverted blocks aimed out wide to the forehand or at his playing elbow and then doing occasional third-ball attacks with my forehand. I gave up just one point the rest of that set and won 11-8.

When I'm playing my best, I'm using my pips to do passive blocks, chop-blocks, chops, rolls, faster topspin attacks against underspin, shovel pushes, aggressive pushes, sideswipes and hits. Sure, I'll make some mistakes, but the variety (usually) results in more errors from my opponent than from me. I intersperse these with twiddling and attacks with my inverted, particularly from the backhand side. The main thing holding me back from advancing to a higher level (other than consistency) is a lack of proper movement and needing to learn better technique with my inverted so that I develop more of a forehand and backhand inverted loop-kill. Sure, if I had more spin reversal on blocks like in the frictionless days, that could get me a few extra points right there, but ultimately, if I'm dialed in, I can spread the ball around the table at awkward angles sufficiently and keep it short and low enough that it's going to be hard for any opponent, except for, maybe, the most elite ones, to keep attacking.

All of this is to say that I think it's not my long pips or my 80% close-to-the-table style that's holding me back. It's my lack of proper inverted technique and my lack of proper movement. These are the main things I'm working on to try to get better.

So, maybe Charmander is right that if you want to compete against some >2500 player (U.S.) with a close-to-the-table blocking style, you'll need to treat your pips or learn to use frictionless anti. What he doesn't mention is that if you want to compete against some >2500 player, you're also going to need incredible talent, athleticism and training that starts when you're young. For all the rest of us, learning to play a close-to-the-table style with regular OX long pips is just fine.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 07:40 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Quote:
So, maybe Charmander is right that if you want to compete against some >2500 player (U.S.) with a close-to-the-table blocking style, you'll need to treat your pips or learn to use frictionless anti. What he doesn't mention is that if you want to compete against some >2500 player, you're also going to need incredible talent, athleticism and training that starts when you're young. For all the rest of us, learning to play a close-to-the-table style with regular OX long pips is just fine.


I agree with TT about TT. It is not the equipment that makes the player win, but the player's use of the equipment. As such, I totally agree with this paragraph.

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 09:25 
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"For all the rest of us, learning to play a close-to-the-table style with regular OX long pips is just fine." Well said Traditional Tradesman :up:
Love TT and this style of play in particular :D


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 18:18 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
dwruck wrote:
Congratulations on your results, they generally sound positive. You are right, against the "best of the best", long pips blocking and chop blocking is going to get absolutely destroyed. There are still some long pips choppers that can play at the highest levels, but you are right, because of the new balls it is more difficult than before.
I think most of us here are "average" players, which is why we talk about the close to the table pips style. We are not trying to compete at the elite levels of the sport (for the most part), but just looking to get to that next level and have fun. I used to be in the USATT 1900 and above range consistently for a couple of years, but then it started slipping a bit. I probably could have stayed in the 1700-1800 range without messing around with my equipment, But I decided to try some other things before I ended up on the Trouble Maker OX. At my age (almost 49), skill level and only able to play 1-2 times per week. using this style and talking about it is very useful.
Charmaine, maybe you over estimated the general level of players here. Yes, there are a number of players that are above 2000 USATT or equivalent. Even at that level, if you are really good, you can be competitive with long pips.
Anyway, just my perspective on why Trouble Maker and other traditional long pips are exciting to talk about here. There are a lot of players with great experience using long pips and I still continue to learn so much.
I tried ABS2 and didn't like it one bit. Maybe I'll have to eventually try the DMS antis. But for now I'll probably stick with the TM, try to get back to my previous level and hope to get over 2000 someday.


As one of those players here who plays a close-to-the-table blocking style with long pips and is (a bit) over 2000, despite not treating my pips in any way, I'll agree with these comments. Yes, you're probably not going to get to a U.S.-2500 level by blocking with long pips (nor are most of us ever going to get that level with double inverted either), but you can get to a level of play where you're competing against and beating some pretty good players. I'd point out that Manika Batra plays close to the table with presumably legal OX pips on an international level, and so does Zhang Guochi (sometimes spelled Guozhi). The thing about these players is that they don't merely block with their pips. They play very aggressively with them. I try to do that as well. The key to my game is to keep opponents constantly off balance.

I was playing this 1800 kid recently, where I made the mistake of being too predictable, something I sometimes have the luxury of doing against players who either don't get pips or don't have shots consistent enough to put pressure on me or avoid mistakes. My whole game against this kid was block against loop, aggressive push against push. At first, he had no idea what to do, and I won the first set 11-1. I won the second set 11-6. Then, by the third set, he'd caught on, and I lost it 14-12. I started playing the fourth set the same way I finished the third, and he jumped out to a 7-2 lead. That's when I caught myself and realized I needed to do something different. I started twiddling, interspersing inverted pushes with my pips pushes, throwing in inverted blocks aimed out wide to the forehand or at his playing elbow and then doing occasional third-ball attacks with my forehand. I gave up just one point the rest of that set and won 11-8.

When I'm playing my best, I'm using my pips to do passive blocks, chop-blocks, chops, rolls, faster topspin attacks against underspin, shovel pushes, aggressive pushes, sideswipes and hits. Sure, I'll make some mistakes, but the variety (usually) results in more errors from my opponent than from me. I intersperse these with twiddling and attacks with my inverted, particularly from the backhand side. The main thing holding me back from advancing to a higher level (other than consistency) is a lack of proper movement and needing to learn better technique with my inverted so that I develop more of a forehand and backhand inverted loop-kill. Sure, if I had more spin reversal on blocks like in the frictionless days, that could get me a few extra points right there, but ultimately, if I'm dialed in, I can spread the ball around the table at awkward angles sufficiently and keep it short and low enough that it's going to be hard for any opponent, except for, maybe, the most elite ones, to keep attacking.

All of this is to say that I think it's not my long pips or my 80% close-to-the-table style that's holding me back. It's my lack of proper inverted technique and my lack of proper movement. These are the main things I'm working on to try to get better.

So, maybe Charmander is right that if you want to compete against some >2500 player (U.S.) with a close-to-the-table blocking style, you'll need to treat your pips or learn to use frictionless anti. What he doesn't mention is that if you want to compete against some >2500 player, you're also going to need incredible talent, athleticism and training that starts when you're young. For all the rest of us, learning to play a close-to-the-table style with regular OX long pips is just fine.


I do agree with you , especially the last paragraph . The technique you are now trying to improve is the one I have already trained to upgrade because I have realised about this fact of using inverted more and not being able to always rely on the pips play . This knowledge has been possible because of the fact that I am ambitious and I don't like losing against high level players by low margins , and my setup is at a clear disadvantage at those higher levels .Hence, I take EVERY opportunity to compete in tournaments where I know I am going to play against iintelligent, athletic ,skilled , high level players, who use super fast blades plus super fast rubbers ,sending super spin ( boosted? , I stopped thinking of this a while ago because that weakens my psychological approach to the game ) .

I believe you are similar to me as far as strategy in the game goes . Only by competing against high level players have I realised that no pip in the world nowadays will help us become better players at those high levels ( even if you train hours and hours on end ) . I want to challenge those guys , I want us, defenders, to push more pressure on those guys, in fact those pip players who adapted great to frictionless antis are already beating them ; that is the route to follow if you like to compete and win .... those who are just happy with a really decent level or just play recreationally, great! pip play is fantastic ,..... I love pips but I will be changing to frictionless anti,.. I am a winner,...I like to compete , I like to train,.... I don't like cheating and as I have said, cheating will never ever benefit tt community, especiallly defenders,... hence, never cheat in your life because that negativity you throw around, does come back to you in the end,sooner or later, maybe not in tt, but in your life, sure.... having said that, I respect everybody's ideas and choices, but let me tell you, there is only one truth, be loving and nice,... cheating is no nice or loving .


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 03:06 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnhr7wn0noE


:'( :'( :'(


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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 08:09 
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Guys,

Min Hyung Jee uses LP OX in a close to the table manner, not chopping. Australian No1, Former Korean Team member, Has been top 100 in the world etc. She's my coach, and I'd rate myself as an above 2000 player with some level of confidence (some - always hard to tell with pips players).

I use LP OX, and what I find with the "top level" ie international players that I come up against is that you can play a close to the table blocking game in general - but you MUST be prepared to counter, step back, pivot and twiddle to keep up with the pace. Min, as an example - twiddles to counterloop with her smooth off both sides, and uses her LP to attack backspin, block at the table, and take any opportunity to play the ball very short. Otherwise she's as fast paced as everyone else.

I strive to play like that, except I'm far less fit, far less skilled, and far less disciplined :rofl: But as a style - you embrace the change. start using the LP to attack backspin, twiddle more, receive serve with either rubber off forehand and backhand (keep them guessing) - It's just a change, that's all.

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PostPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 21:25 
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SuperHappyFunSlider wrote:
Guys,

Min Hyung Jee uses LP OX in a close to the table manner, not chopping. Australian No1, Former Korean Team member, Has been top 100 in the world etc. She's my coach, and I'd rate myself as an above 2000 player with some level of confidence (some - always hard to tell with pips players


Hi SuperHappyFunSlider

As a fellow Australian, what do you think the USATT 2000 equivalent is in Rating Central?? 1700??

Thanks
Rob


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 08:12 
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Rob M wrote:

Hi SuperHappyFunSlider

As a fellow Australian, what do you think the USATT 2000 equivalent is in Rating Central?? 1700??

Thanks
Rob


Hi Rob, Hope you're well! With the newest update yet to really "actualize" it's hard to say, but I'd say it could be more about 1400-1500 or so to be honest. The Australian team junior players who are competing at the same level/similar ranking to the USA Jnr players are rated from about 1800 Ratings central up which is about 2300 Minimum from my minor analysis, combined with USA players who I have met and their rating based on matches won over here. I have personally played a few with ratings ranging from 1750 to 2150, which gave e an idea of about where I am at. The fellow who is around 2100 USATT is at about 1500 RC.

However This should be taken with a grain of salt - any players who haven't played recently or don't use the aussie ratings system on a very regular basis I would not be confident the rating will be relative, due to RC's changes in algorithm.

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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 08:09 
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Has anyone used Troublemaker OX on an allround balsa blade? If so did it work? I read through the thread but it looks like most users have it on non-balsa blades

regards

Steve


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PostPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 10:33 
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SteveUK wrote:
Has anyone used Troublemaker OX on an allround balsa blade? If so did it work? I read through the thread but it looks like most users have it on non-balsa blades

regards

Steve

Hello, gentleman! I have used Troublemaker ox on TSP balsa 2.5 and I did not like how the rubber performed, yes lots of control but it was useless against good attackers .

It seems an all wood blade and preferably all + / off - is the way to go .I suggest the following blades : Grubba all +, Thibar Samsonov Premium contact, Nittaku Ludeack - the best of the three -

By bombastic courtesy of Char def :lol:


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PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 05:39 
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charmander defender wrote:
SteveUK wrote:
Has anyone used Troublemaker OX on an allround balsa blade? If so did it work? I read through the thread but it looks like most users have it on non-balsa blades

regards

Steve

Hello, gentleman! I have used Troublemaker ox on TSP balsa 2.5 and I did not like how the rubber performed, yes lots of control but it was useless against good attackers .

It seems an all wood blade and preferably all + / off - is the way to go .I suggest the following blades : Grubba all +, Thibar Samsonov Premium contact, Nittaku Ludeack - the best of the three -

By bombastic courtesy of Char def :lol:


Greetings. I'm actually using Troublemaker OX on a Labyrinthos which is a balsa carbon combi blade by Nexy. It works really well I have to say. I found the TM was nothing special on any def/all blades I tried. Yes, as Charman says, good control and short blocks but no underspin and attacking was slowwwwww...and required max effort for little reward. The thick, 2 plys of balsa (bolstered by carbon) in the Labyrinthos gives that extra punch when attacking and absorbs pace as well, in that wierd way that balsa has. Also, being a stiff blade, the underspin on blocks is much better. So yeah, I think balsa works well with the TM but maybe needs to be a thick, stiff balsa blade w/some carbon in it? My 2 cents...


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PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 06:07 
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Also, and totally by accident, I managed to remove the glue sheet from my red TMaker and really like it much better without it! I was trying to rub off a layer of Copydex (Tearmender in N. America) glue from the back of the TM and ended up tearing/rubbing off a section of the attached gluesheet as well. The rubber itself was fine though, so... In for a penny, in for a pound, I got out the iron, slapped on a sheet of A4 paper to cover the back...a bill of some sort :devil: ...ran the iron over it for a minute or 2 to melt/soften the glue attaching the sheet to the rubber and then carefully peeled the rest of the gluesheet off.

The glueing to the blade process was next and, in fairness, was tricky. The TM is wafer thin, as a great man once said, and wanted to stick itself to...itself, so care was needed. A layer of glue on the blade and one on the back of the TM, wait for it to half-dry and then a novena or two. Then, I stuck the top of the rubber to the top of the blade down first (as opposed to starting with the label etc. at bottom) and then stretched the rest out and voila! I actually got a bit of stretch in it, a la the Contra Dtecs version (where they stretch out the Dtecs onto a glue sheet). Again, this wasn't exactly intentional but I didn't want bubbles. Anyway, it worked.

As for how it plays? Great! Better, I think, without the gluesheet. I was impressed with TM from the get go, but still felt it lacked...bite? I don't know how to put it. I was starting to think that the increased control and ease of attacking were not worth the trade off in backspin on blocks or pace in attacking shots. I was toying around with going back to Dtecs and even tried Bomb Talent. (Wow, what a strange longpip. Would take me 6 months to learn to use it properly, though I could attack with it right out of the pack. Anyway...) Well, removing the gluesheet on the Troublemaker has caused me to rethink this.

Ok, the rubber becomes slightly faster, so you lose a modicum of control the rubber has become known for...but very little. In fact, I felt it was less muffled on contact and you got better feedback through the blade without it. The underspin on blocks is definitely greater. The effects overall are increased, I felt.

For example, the attacking push with this rubber is never going to cause the problems a Dtecs or Dornenglanz will but it does get the job done if you think of this shot as setting up your next shot rather than being an outright point-winner itself; and this shot became better, even a little bit dangerous, dare I say, without the gluesheet. Hitting/attacking backspin was the same if not better. But most of all I felt return of serve became much better. The dipping of the ball when you press forward on serves, particularly deadball serves, seemed to me to be increased and to cause more problems.

Overall, it was a really happy accident for me and I think I will now stick with the TM for the coming season. I wonder would the good Doctor N consider releasing a version without the gluesheet? It is tricky to stick on the blade without it but I imagine it would be far less so with an uncut sheet. (Mine today was cut, obviously.) I think he would find a small market for it if he were to do so.

But a word of caution: I may have got lucky here. There are reports on some of the German forums of people damaging the TM trying to remove the gluesheet. Like I said, it was an accident but I did use the same method I always use to remove sponges and gluesheets and alas, it worked. And I got a better rubber. Win, win! :D


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PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 10:57 
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Very fortuitous indeed for you :D While TM is the talk of the town and the new pip on the block, just want to add that classic BT (my pip as you briefly mentioned) is also a good all-round long pip with similar playing characteristics to TM. :)


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PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 15:15 
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TTbuddy wrote:
Very fortuitous indeed for you :D While TM is the talk of the town and the new pip on the block, just want to add that classic BT (my pip as you briefly mentioned) is also a good all-round long pip with similar playing characteristics to TM. :)


I'm assuming BT = Bomb Talent ... I've not played with Troublemaker (TM), and what I know about it, is derived purely from what I've read.... The general consensus seems to be that TM is rather slow, and offer a good deal of control... But, I don't think BT is like TM ....... I play with BT(ox), on a All blade, and to me, it certainly does not seem slow, or even controlled... It's been just about 3 months, since I've been playing with it... I'm yet trying to figure it out... But, from the little I've figured, it does seem quite effective... I like BT...


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