OOAK Table Tennis Forum
https://ooakforum.com/

Long pips versus Anti
https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38455		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  TraditionalTradesman [ 01 Aug 2021, 23:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
redspot wrote:
Are you still happy with Hellfire X on Shake Defence?


Seems to be the best option among the alternatives available, though I do occasionally use the Saviga Superblock against certain opponents.
Author:  dwruck [ 02 Aug 2021, 22:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
The one area I will say that long pips has an advantage is in the ability for a skilled player to change up the spin. If you use a grippy pip like Grass D Tec S, you have the ability to impart your own spin, or as a change up, no spin at all. With the frictionless anti, its passive reversal is in my opinion far greater, but it does not allow for actively changing up the spin to deceive your opponent. With frictionless anti, what you need to do is change depth and placement. Especially against an attacking player who is able to blast an early loop at you, the ability to drop pretty much any serve short is an invaluable tool.
Author:  skilless_slapper [ 03 Aug 2021, 06:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
dwruck wrote:
The one area I will say that long pips has an advantage is in the ability for a skilled player to change up the spin. If you use a grippy pip like Grass D Tec S, you have the ability to impart your own spin, or as a change up, no spin at all. With the frictionless anti, its passive reversal is in my opinion far greater, but it does not allow for actively changing up the spin to deceive your opponent. With frictionless anti, what you need to do is change depth and placement. Especially against an attacking player who is able to blast an early loop at you, the ability to drop pretty much any serve short is an invaluable tool.



You would call grass d.tecs a grippy pip!? :lol:

To me, it's probably the lowest friction long pip there is!

For my own playing, I'll say people just have an easier time overall returning blocks/shots from the frictionless anti. Even if I face a player who has no idea about the spin reversal aspects etc. they can return a lot more vs the anti, but when I go at them with d.tecs... it's like a wild west shoot out! Balls going every which way!
Author:  TraditionalTradesman [ 03 Aug 2021, 09:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
skilless_slapper wrote:
For my own playing, I'll say people just have an easier time overall returning blocks/shots from the frictionless anti.


I don't know about blocks -- the heavy backspin on frictionless anti blocks makes them harder to loop, and the main weakness of contemporary long pips is low spin reversal, making many blocks insufficiently challenging -- but as far as attacks, yes, long pips are definitely superior. That's why I said in an earlier post in this thread that I feel like frictionless anti requires you to be more aggressive with your attacks. If your attack with frictionless anti is not sufficiently strong, you can get it blasted back at you. That's generally not the case with long pips, where opponents have to lift more to return attacks and where the greater long pips stroke and spin variation also makes opponents more tentative in response. This means that you can afford to play it a bit safer in attacking, wait on a weak return and then finish the point with your inverted rubber.
Author:  dwruck [ 03 Aug 2021, 23:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
My regular playing partners have told me that the frictionless anti is much more difficult to play against than long pips, in terms of the amount of spin reversal that's generated. From my tournament experience over the last couple of years, I'd say that was the case there as well. I am getting significantly more errors from my opponents off the anti, in terms of spin reversal and "funk", than the long pips with the new ball.
The thing is, you need to have the right setup. At first, when I tried frictionless anti, I had the same opinion, that it was toothless. However, I was trying the Dr Neubauer ABS and ABS2 on a defensive blade.
The major thing that you simply must have is the right blade. A slow defensive blade will not give you the reversal or funk with a frictionless anti that a faster, more stiff blade will. Once I tried frictionless anti rubbers on a Dr Neubauer Matador, I could easily see the difference. Then, when I started using the DMS Deluxe Carbon blade, it was a whole new world.
Second, the newest versions of frictionless rubber from DMS are significantly more effective for giving disturbing returns of top spin than earlier versions. Transformer Extra Slow and Diabolic Extra Slow were ok. Scandal is good. Storkraft...that rubber is incredible. I've been playing defensive style close to the table for a very long time, and nothing I've ever encountered can give the pure spin reversal and "funk" as Storkraft on Deluxe Carbon.
The Dr Neubauer rubbers are, to me, a different animal. Dr N's rubbers have significantly thicker sponges, and to me the style of frictionless anti play is less reversal and funk than control and consistency. It is likely most players can attack much easier with the Dr N rubbers, and they are a good step in learning the basics of frictionless anti play. I've chosen to invest quite a bit of time and effort into training with the more disturbing, but more difficult to control, Storkraft and it's really paying off. After training with it for about 5 months I took trophies in 3 events at one tournament, something I'd never done.
If you want to give a fair comparison of long pips to frictionless anti, you need to put the anti on the right blade.
Author:  dwruck [ 05 Aug 2021, 23:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
skilless_slapper wrote:

You would call grass d.tecs a grippy pip!? :lol:

To me, it's probably the lowest friction long pip there is!

[/quote]

Yes, I'd definitely consider Grass D Tec S a grippy pip. It's because of the grip that you can both add significant spin when chop blocking but then also vary with dead balls. If it didn't have that grip, you couldn't get that level of variation. The grip is also partially what makes it more difficult to control and not a beginner's long pip.
Author:  Ndragon [ 09 Aug 2021, 14:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
dwruck wrote:
Yes, I'd definitely consider Grass D Tec S a grippy pip. It's because of the grip that you can both add significant spin when chop blocking but then also vary with dead balls. If it didn't have that grip, you couldn't get that level of variation. The grip is also partially what makes it more difficult to control and not a beginner's long pip.


I think you got too used to Fanti and you forgot how non grippy Dtecs is. There is very little to no variation YOU yourself can do with the ball. Even a regular block without moving the blade results in reversal. Even somehow on a mid distance block there is still reversal. The thing that makes it hard is the speed, it's a very very fast LP.

Anyway back to topic. If you play inside 1 step or at the table and mostly block then Fanti gonna do you more justice. Everything is going to feel easier from there and you will make far less errors and most likely create more errors for opponents. Just remember higher lvl you get less errors from opponents so consistency starts to play a bigger factor.

It's not that you cannot do the same with LPs it's just harder because the easier passive block turns into a chop block or very soft handed block, sensitive to blade angles etc etc. So your margin for errors becomes a lot smaller. Just video yourself and see just how many points you give away from close to table etc, great for learning and will open your eyes a little, show you what you need to work on....or what rubber to try next :lol:

But if you will start to take 2 or more steps back, better to look at classic anti or LPs.
Author:  dwruck [ 09 Aug 2021, 22:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
That is true, if you play further away from the table, frictionless anti is not the right rubber for a player. You need to try to take the ball off the bounce as quickly as possible.

I stand by my assessment of Grass D Tec S. Comparing the grip of Grass to the grip of a more firm pip, like Friendship 755, the pips can obviously bend more and bend easier. Making it more grippy and able to impart your own spin, also giving you the possibility with practice of being able to alter the amount of spin that you can put on the ball.
Author:  skilless_slapper [ 10 Aug 2021, 05:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
dwruck wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:

You would call grass d.tecs a grippy pip!? :lol:

To me, it's probably the lowest friction long pip there is!



Yes, I'd definitely consider Grass D Tec S a grippy pip. It's because of the grip that you can both add significant spin when chop blocking but then also vary with dead balls. If it didn't have that grip, you couldn't get that level of variation. The grip is also partially what makes it more difficult to control and not a beginner's long pip.[/quote]


What is considered a low grip pip then? Or what is the lowest legal currently?
Author:  dwruck [ 10 Aug 2021, 21:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
As I noted in a previous posting, a pip the style of Friendship 755 would be considered a lower grip pip. Friendship 837 also. Dr Neubauer Gangster and Trouble Maker I would say have less grip than the D Tec S. If you were to compare the spin "reversal" of those rubbers to that of the Grass D Tec S you would find that it is less than the Grass. Much like inverted rubbers have different levels of grip or tack, pips have different levels of grip depending on how firm the pips are. It's the classic scenario, the more grip the pip has, the more dangerous it is for your opponent because you can get more spin on the ball, but it is also more difficult to control as well. And in the case of Grass D Tec S, it's also faster. Take some sheets of different long pips and rub your finger or a ball over them. It will become obvious for you which have more grip. Comparing Grass to 755, for example, it is fairly easy to notice.
Author:  force2brw [ 12 Aug 2021, 23:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
Anti and Long Pips use a different mechanical advantage to produce similar kinds of results. I think it comes down to whether you are chopping or blocking. For chopping, there is a definite advantage to using long pips. Please see much more detail about why here:
https://merelytheories.blogspot.com/2021/08/why-do-choppers-use-long-pips.html

For anti, it actually might give you a bit more consistency if you're main goal is blocking, since you don't have to worry about which way the pips will bend.
Author:  Pongista92 [ 10 Jul 2022, 19:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Long pips versus Anti
when long pips and anti face each other :D

Page 2 of 2 All times are UTC + 9:30 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/