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PostPosted: 04 May 2022, 14:29 
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Question about racket speed and racket angle. One way to account for incoming topspin is to adjust the racket angle, so that to adjust for heavy topspin, the face of the blade when chopping against really heavy topspin is almost perpendicular to the floor. That I am used to. However, another way would seem to be to swing fast enough so the speed of the face of the racket counteracts some of the incoming rotation of the ball. If this is true, the faster you swing, the less you have to adjust the racket angle to account for the incoming topspin. So the racket angle needs to be adjusted not only according to the amount of incoming topspin, but also the speed of your swing.

Its this all true, does the type of long pips (or anti) affect this dramatically? Lots of folks talk about "throw angle" with inverted, but I rarely hear about that with long pips, but that must play a factor, too.

If this is all true, figuring out the interaction between racket speed and racket angle (and rubber type) must be why learning to chop is so tough. With all this complexity, I am amazed any of my shots land on the table.


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PostPosted: 04 May 2022, 20:37 
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allencorn wrote:
However, another way would seem to be to swing fast enough so the speed of the face of the racket counteracts some of the incoming rotation of the ball. If this is true, the faster you swing, the less you have to adjust the racket angle to account for the incoming topspin. So the racket angle needs to be adjusted not only according to the amount of incoming topspin, but also the speed of your swing.

I believe this is true. If you swing faster than the spin on the ball (i.e. speed of your racket is faster than the speed of the surface of the ball due to rotation), then you'll be controlling the amount of spin on the ball you return, and you'll get a lot more control and consistency as a result. If you do this, the angle of the bat is much less important.
If you look at how JSH chops, you'll see that his swing looks almost identical every time.

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PostPosted: 05 May 2022, 08:46 
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6 Meters per second (m/s) is the optimum racket velocity in chopping motion. It is the measured speed of ball surface nearest to ball's equator.
Hand chopping motion should be swift and abrupt, 6 M/s at least. Ultrasonic takhometer is best suitable for evaluation of hand speed.

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PostPosted: 05 May 2022, 14:08 
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haggisv wrote:
I believe this is true. If you swing faster than the spin on the ball (i.e. speed of your racket is faster than the speed of the surface of the ball due to rotation), then you'll be controlling the amount of spin on the ball you return, and you'll get a lot more control and consistency as a result. If you do this, the angle of the bat is much less important.
If you look at how JSH chops, you'll see that his swing looks almost identical every time.


That is what I figured. The top choppers all seem to swing extremely fast and quick, probably using that racket speed to neutralize any incoming spin, and therefore not needing to adjust their racket angle much. Even their push of a push return is quite fast. I imagine this also bends the pips a good bit, which is how they get so much spin. Developing that level of touch to swing that fast at incoming loops is phenomenal. I think I just swing too slow, and therefore have to adjust my racket angle and then don't develop enough spin. Counterlooping seems easier, but not near as much fun.


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PostPosted: 05 May 2022, 19:55 
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In my unprofessional opinion racket angle is important to kill (actually to transform into spin) incoming speed. So it depends on quality of incoming loop and your distance from the table. Incoming spin seems to be effectively controlled by long pips rubber design itself.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 07:39 
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allencorn wrote:
haggisv wrote:
I believe this is true. If you swing faster than the spin on the ball (i.e. speed of your racket is faster than the speed of the surface of the ball due to rotation), then you'll be controlling the amount of spin on the ball you return, and you'll get a lot more control and consistency as a result. If you do this, the angle of the bat is much less important.
If you look at how JSH chops, you'll see that his swing looks almost identical every time.


That is what I figured. The top choppers all seem to swing extremely fast and quick, probably using that racket speed to neutralize any incoming spin, and therefore not needing to adjust their racket angle much. Even their push of a push return is quite fast. I imagine this also bends the pips a good bit, which is how they get so much spin. Developing that level of touch to swing that fast at incoming loops is phenomenal. I think I just swing too slow, and therefore have to adjust my racket angle and then don't develop enough spin. Counterlooping seems easier, but not near as much fun.


It's a bit unintuitive but higher racket speed makes your chops safer because you have a higher margin of error as long as you have a thin ball contact. If you misjudge the spin it will probably still go on the table, just a bit higher. Not two meters out like can happen to a low-speed chop with the wrong angle. And you get a higher quality chop as added bonus :)

On a slow and spinny loop try to chop under the ball almost horizontally. If you do it with good racket speed and just gracing the ball (you can hear when you do it right by the sound of the ball hitting the bat) you will be continuing the spin that is there from the loop.

On a fast loop you may not have time for the backswing, then I find it's easier to just do a short chop, almost like a block.

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PostPosted: 08 May 2022, 00:51 
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magnuseffect wrote:
It's a bit unintuitive but higher racket speed makes your chops safer because you have a higher margin of error as long as you have a thin ball contact. If you misjudge the spin it will probably still go on the table, just a bit higher. Not two meters out like can happen to a low-speed chop with the wrong angle. And you get a higher quality chop as added bonus :)

On a slow and spinny loop try to chop under the ball almost horizontally. If you do it with good racket speed and just gracing the ball (you can hear when you do it right by the sound of the ball hitting the bat) you will be continuing the spin that is there from the loop.

On a fast loop you may not have time for the backswing, then I find it's easier to just do a short chop, almost like a block.


I probably have the reverse problem. I think i tend to swing slower when chopping slow loops and try to adjust the racket angle to compensate for the spin. On chopping against faster loops I swing pretty quick, as I am reacting to the speed. I'm gonna have to work on that, to try to swing faster for everything to improve my chop quality.


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PostPosted: 08 May 2022, 03:46 
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allencorn wrote:
I probably have the reverse problem. I think i tend to swing slower when chopping slow loops and try to adjust the racket angle to compensate for the spin. On chopping against faster loops I swing pretty quick, as I am reacting to the speed. I'm gonna have to work on that, to try to swing faster for everything to improve my chop quality.


Yeah, racket speed helps control the ball both on slow and fast loops. But sometimes on fast loops, it's easy to react by trying to go for a too big backswing and chop that there is no time for. Helps to keep the bat higher when you anticipate a fast loop as it saves time on the backswing.

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PostPosted: 11 May 2022, 22:08 
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magnuseffect wrote:
allencorn wrote:
I probably have the reverse problem. I think i tend to swing slower when chopping slow loops and try to adjust the racket angle to compensate for the spin. On chopping against faster loops I swing pretty quick, as I am reacting to the speed. I'm gonna have to work on that, to try to swing faster for everything to improve my chop quality.


Yeah, racket speed helps control the ball both on slow and fast loops. But sometimes on fast loops, it's easy to react by trying to go for a too big backswing and chop that there is no time for. Helps to keep the bat higher when you anticipate a fast loop as it saves time on the backswing.


Every single player in tabletennis plays every single stroke (not just chopping) differently & that is what makes tabletennis interesting even if in some cases very weird (but equally effective) .

But my general comment is as follows & I have no problem being proven wrong by a physicist.
To maximize spin in a loop or chop (or to maximize speed in a flat hit) , you need to be at maximum "acceleration" not the "speed" at contact point. Most of you are familar with this in basic calculus & physics. "Speed" is the first differntial of distance (linear or angular for ball spin? ) but acceleration is the first differential of speed (and therefore second differential of distance). So if your hand moves at the same speed towards contact point, you are not going to attain the maximum possible spin (or speed). And on an unrelated interesting note, the opposite is an auto manufacturer providing a 0 to 60 MPH value for a minivan as compared to a 0-180 MPH value for a Ferrari (or a Ferrari having a cruise control installed as a standard option.......do they ? ) LOL
This is why I get most annoyed with some pips out hitters as they have such quick and compact hand movements & blow the ball by you so fast. It is of course fun to watch a Jiang or He Zhiwen do this to a looper but it is not much fun to be on the receiving end yourself.


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PostPosted: 11 May 2022, 23:23 
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It seems that very few peoples talk about the main principle of Lp. They are just more or less continue the rotation of the ball coming to the LP. Take the PR1 and P4 of the TSP curl series. PR1 is very good to continue the spin without having to speed up the ball by swinging in the same direction of the rotation of the ball. The hard sponge if any don't react to much against the rotation contrary of the smooth one of the P4. So the P4 will react a bit more against the rotation. When you swing it accentuate or counter to a certain degree the rotation of the ball. That is why P4 will have greater push and even can create his own backspin on opponent no spin ball or very light underspin. So despite the speed of the spin we put on our shop, countering heavy top spin cannot be made.

So the variables on the reaction of the spin and speed and trow angle of the ball is depending of the speed and spin of the opponant and the caracteristics of the pimple, the sponge and the bat. Also there is of course the different force of your body part. They are so many variables in the equation that putting a statement of what will be result of the trow angle with our swing is very difficult to talk her. Unless you are very knowledgeable with all the pimple, their sponge and all the bats on the market then you can look at one specific set up reaction and trow angle of all the different shot that the opponant trow at you. No specific set up no real basics possible.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2022, 02:23 
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I uncovered a couple of training videos by Shiono relevant to the racket speed discussion.

In this video, about halfway though, he mentions that when using long pips, you need to swing fast:



In another video on returning a push, you can see how fast he swings to get underspin on the ball. He also also demonstrates how when swinging more slowly and with a different racket angle, you get the more traditional long pips reversal effect.



This is part of a set of great videos of Shiono training a chopper. I wish more had English subtitles.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2022, 22:43 
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allencorn wrote:
I uncovered a couple of training videos by Shiono relevant to the racket speed discussion.


Thanks for the videos! That's a nice demonstration of spinny push vs no spin pushes with different racket angle and the contact point higher on the bat. Just got a fresh sheet of curl and will be practising this as the increased spin should make the variation even more effective.

Nice multiball exercises also.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2022, 02:02 
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magnuseffect wrote:
allencorn wrote:
I uncovered a couple of training videos by Shiono relevant to the racket speed discussion.


Thanks for the videos! That's a nice demonstration of spinny push vs no spin pushes with different racket angle and the contact point higher on the bat. Just got a fresh sheet of curl and will be practising this as the increased spin should make the variation even more effective.

Nice multiball exercises also.


Apparently these videos are part of a series that Stiga Japan did with Shiono a few years ago. If you poke around on the lili TV Youtube site, you can find a bunch - must be 10 or 12 that I have found. Great demos, and a few have English subtitles. I wish there was a way to locate them all. Since Shiono was one of my favorite choppers to watch, I found these enjoyable and very informative.


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